Battery Replacement/Rewire

[Dale Tanski]

D&D,

I love your analysis on Wayne's issue.  Numbers and data are a wonderful thing.  The charge rate does indeed drop off somewhat as the battery achieves a higher charge so your calculations would have to be adjusted not in Wayne's favor. 

There are not many people out there that use water generators.  For that reason you will not find much informational feedback by actual users.  You are correct that marine life have been known to feed upon them and blades have been lost from impact with debris.  Wind turbines loose blades and solar panels find there way behind obstructions limiting their output.  Everything has its limitations.

There is a unit that mounts on the stern much like an outboard motor. Instead of towing behind on a cord the generator is held under the surface of the water by a bracket.  When not required or not in use, the unit can be removed from the water. This close proximity to the boat provides added protection to the equipment.  Some would argue that the efficiency is less due to turbulence off of the hull and others would argue that it would be increased as the water flowing around the keel assembly actually increases its performance.  Either way it is yet another option while underway.  You are correct when at anchor it is not paying its way.  You may benefit from it while on the hook and the tide is flowing.  For me in Lake Erie not so much. 

Your idea of a second alternator is a good one.  Where it gets complicated is when you already have additional engine accessories like a refrigeration compressor.  It even gets better if you consider the redundancy factor.  Two is better than one especially off shore.  Yes there is added weight, yes there are more moving parts but all in all the advantages of having two alternators when well outside of a spare part facility is a good one. 

Dale

[PeteW]

So why would anyone pay $1000 for a 110 Amp Balmar alternator when you can buy a 100 amp Ford Alternator for $100. The hands down answer is: "ding ding ding"..  Because its got 12 poles.

In the marine diesel environment you want to be able to charge your batteries with the engine running slightly off idle. At least that seems ideal to me. The reason why most alternators aren't up to the task is they are only 8 poles. You can count the claws on the rotor to determine how many poles your alternator has.

Here's a plot of your typical automotive 8 pole alternator.


Figuring a pulley ratio of around 2.5:1 means my engine needs to run at 1800 rpm to get the alternator output up on the curve at 4500 rpm.  However with the 12 pole Balmar running at the same ratio,  per Dave's chart,  I'm up on the output curve  at only 1000 rpm engine speed. 33% better as you can calculate comparing 12 poles to 8.

As for alternative energy onboard. Below 25 degrees latitude solar is the most popular choice. 100% of the cruisers have some form of solar as the primary energy source.  I had a wind turbine on my mizzen and I took it down. Up in Alaska I'm not sure if solar is a good way to go. As I learned in the Satellite business, the look angles up there are very low and likewise tracking the sun sounds problematic. But there are times of the year when you get lots of sun. Look for mono-crystalline silicon panels. They are more efficient and require less space than polycrystalline. Make sure you get a high efficiency PPT (peak power transfer) charge controller inverter that can handle the high open circuit voltages of  your solar array. In my case I'm looking at running 2 panels in series which puts me up around 50 volts .

Pete

[Dale Tanski]

Another reason for buying the Balmar is that when you take one apart you will find that all of the innards are coated which means that as it draws all of that salt air through the case with its cooling fan, the salt will not dissolve the parts.

Dale

[Della and Dave]

On the compass marine site, he has an article on rebuilding a Westerbeke alternator, which I think is what we have, and it shows the rotor.   http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/alternator_rebuild&page=1.   

So Pete, want to guess how many poles?   You got it, looks like 8, not 12, although it's hard to count accurately in the pictures.  That would mean that it's charging curve would require a higher RPM.   Assuming I have something like a 2.5:1 pulley ratio that would mean I would be getting something like 2/3 to 3/4 rated output at 1600 engine RPM.  Maybe 30-40 amps unless it's limited by the battery, lead wire resistance, or regulator. 

I also read a while ago on one of Dale's posts that he couldn't connect his TAC, is that just that it would read high by 12/8 because it picks up the pulse off the poles to count RPM, or is there something else related to the Balmar?   
This is getting to be a pretty deep string....   

[SVJourney]

Thanks for the inputs guys,

Rpm doesn't seem to be a factor as revving the engine does not increase amps past 1800 rpms
I definitely know when the belt is slipping as it squeals like a pig.  The big problem with single belts are that belt life is not long.
Wiring is single aught cable, should be enough.  It never gets warm to touch.
I have a Balmar regulator, pretty sure it is set up right.  Jumpered to flooded cells.
I don't have a temp sensor.
Ammeter is a shunted LinkLite meter.  (Nice unit BTW, if anyone is looking for a battery monitor)

I am actually pretty happy with 65 amps for the batteries I have.  Even depleted, it takes about an hour before the amps start to ramp down so I don't think it makes that much difference.

Just for anybodies interest in systems for cruising:  We have 200 watts of solar on a tilt mount between the davits.  It supplies about half of our needs.  Wish I had more, perhaps on the bimini even though I would have to deal with a lot of shading from the mizzen.
We have a Honda 2000 and a 45 amp battery charger that we use at anchor to bulk charge batteries in the morning, then let the solar panels float the batteries up to full charge during the day.  We also charge up computers, tablets, the vaccuum and make water while its running.
We only run the engine for battery charging while on passage. the instruments and autopilot really run up our power consumption.  I have used the Honda under way before, but don't like the smell or trying to pour gasoline into while the boat is pitching wildly.

The question is.... why is your 110 amp alternator only putting out ~65 amps? 

1) RPM not high enough?
2) Belt slipping?
3) Under sized wiring?
4) Regulator not set up or not correct?
5) Temperature sensor control on battery bank has a problem?

If I were to guess, I would say that the belt is slipping self regulating the output of the charging system.  At the 400 hour mark the belt begins slipping to the point that it is noticeable. I remember ~50 amps and D&D say 55 amps. It would no surprise me that the slip load on your alternator at the belt tension that you can maintain is 65 amps. 

My 110 amp alternator will put out 110 amps until the temperature sensor in the alternator throttles the system back to save the alternator or the battery temperature does the same.  Because I utilize AGM's the charge load is infinite. 

Dale

[Dale Tanski]

To quote Pete...

Why is it?

Dale

[Della and Dave]

Enjoy the next passage Wayne, send pictures of the Galapagos when you get there. 

On the Solar, do the panels interfere with getting in and out of the dingy over the stern?  We have the Forespar Davits, and eventually when we head out, we were thinking that would be a good spot for solar panels, but we're wondering about getting over the rail, under the panels etc. Do you have a cutout in your stern rail?  Solar isn't easy up here, for reasons Pete alluded to, except for keeping up with battery discharge, and we have shore power for that presently.  When we head out, that will change.  It seems like from the locals, flexibility in your mounting arrangement is key to making it work in high latitudes. 

I have read some people that are concerned about using portable generators like the Honda from a safety standpoint.  It seems like if you are carefull and not use it under way like you said, the risk of fuel spills, CO poisoning and electrocution  could be fairly easily managed.  What do you do in practice? We're curious about when you feel like you can use it and where you put it in use, and not in use.  What do you do to store gas, or did you do a propane conversion? 

[PeteW]

Wayne,
If I had that high end alternator I don't think I would be happy with 65 amps. And all that squealing. As the locals say out here in southern California,  Dude...

I understand not wanting the expense of converting to dual belts. Westerbeke wants $600 for a dual water pump pulley. Perhaps a nice belt tensioner would help.

This is being offered on EBay as "Delorean Belt Tensioner" . Its  304 SS and costs $44.



When I got to upgrading to 2 dual belts I did the cross reference and found that in my case the correct belts were actually metric. Sort of makes sense since my Westerbeke is a Mazda. My points is and Dale pointed this out awhile back that there is more to V belts than just the length. The V needs to match the groove angle without bottoming out on the pulleys. Otherwise they slip and squeal. What was on my motor was totally wrong.

Pete

[SVJourney]

Pete,
That looks like a sweet set up I would love to have!  As of now, I jam a hammer haft between alt and eng block to try to adjust belt tension with one hand and try to tighten the bolt with the other.  Complete pain in the ass.  I'll look at this again when we are in New Zealand and have some time on our hands. It only squeals to let me know to tension it again, like a puppy that needs to go out. I have 4 new belts as spares this trip.
As far as 65 amps out of my alternator, well, lets just say that I am having enough problems with systems that are totally failing this year that I relish the ones that actually work.   Boat work in exotic places anyone? 

D&D,
Yeah, the panel is totally in the way of the davits.  No gate.  We drop the dingy, raise the panel out of the way with a rope sling over the mizzen boom, I climb over the rail, duck under the panel and drop down into the dingy monkey style, then use the side rails to board and debark every time we use it.  No system is perfect, but as long as I am young and limber(53 years old! Arrrgh!) I can deal with it.  We met a Pearson owner (not on this forum) whose son was a boat stainless welder last year in Georgetown Bahamas.  He had a system I was totally jealous of, including an opening gate in his pushpit.  He actually raised his mizzen boom a few inches to give him a totally enclosed cockpit with 7' headroom.  Sweet set up.  If you have a few extra grand, I highly recommend it.  lol.

[SVJourney]

Thanks D&D,
Pics from the Galapagos will surely be up on Dana's web site when we get there.  Probably 2 weeks from now.

For the Honda, I run it in the cockpit, lashed to the rail so it wont tip over.  When not in use I stow it in the lazzerette with padding around it to keep it upright and stable.  It has a closable vent in the fuel cap so and the off switch shuts off the fuel so I don't worry about it spilling there. The Honda just sips at the gas so 10 gals in jerry jugs keeps us going for a month or so for that and dingy engine usage. 

I have  a dream of installing a 26 gal gas tank aft of the rudder post under the propane locker some day.  Direct connection to the Honda via the remote tank connection that Honda sells.  And a small pump to refuel my dingy engine via a hose and petcock.  No more gas cans cluttering my rail is a very sweet dream.

Now if I can only get Dana to get rid of the kayak on the rail too..... ah well, the things we do for the Admiral right?

Enjoy the next passage Wayne, send pictures of the Galapagos when you get there. 

On the Solar, do the panels interfere with getting in and out of the dingy over the stern?  We have the Forespar Davits, and eventually when we head out, we were thinking that would be a good spot for solar panels, but we're wondering about getting over the rail, under the panels etc. Do you have a cutout in your stern rail?  Solar isn't easy up here, for reasons Pete alluded to, except for keeping up with battery discharge, and we have shore power for that presently.  When we head out, that will change.  It seems like from the locals, flexibility in your mounting arrangement is key to making it work in high latitudes. 

I have read some people that are concerned about using portable generators like the Honda from a safety standpoint.  It seems like if you are carefull and not use it under way like you said, the risk of fuel spills, CO poisoning and electrocution  could be fairly easily managed.  What do you do in practice? We're curious about when you feel like you can use it and where you put it in use, and not in use.  What do you do to store gas, or did you do a propane conversion? 

[Della and Dave]

Can you guys explain what the best practice is for common vs. ground wire?  The context is the battery charger wiring at first, but I'd like to understand it better in general.  I'm planning my wiring and I think I am going to get at least a common buss from this outfit online called Obersheiner's sailing supply;-). They seem to be pretty reliable and the owner knows the Pearson 365 really well.   http://obersheimers.com/categories/electrical/busbars-connectors-insulators/blue-sea-systems.html?sort=featured&page=1. I may collect positive as well, but that isn't as big an issue on the battery terminals, and I need to figure out how and where to fuse them first. I think currently the first fuse the positive current sees is the main breaker in the DC panel.  Sizing advice appreciated here.....

I am planning on collecting my common terminals on the buss bar instead of the current mess on the start battery terminal.   The negative pole of both batteries will go to the common bus bar using 2/0 cable.  This bus bar is rated at 250 amps, about the biggest I could find, but my start current surge will be above that, even if it is for a very short time.  Planning on the heavy cable from start bat and to starter being ganged on the same stud if that is feasible. 

My new mastervolt 40amp battery charger has a common and a ground.  I went for it because it could accommodate 40 amps on 3 separate battery banks, provided a float and battery temp monitoring and was selectable for type, AGM for me.  I have a bunch of green wires connecting all the through hulls etc, I assume that is "ground".   Do I connect the green ground from the charger to them, and the negative/common  to my new common buss bar?  Should I connect common and ground, or is that a marine no-no due to stray current issues?

P.S. I leave the battery switch in the off position when we leave the boat, but the bilge pump bypasses the switch, so the bilge pump will still operate. I am hoping to leave the charger on too to allow shore power to float the banks, unless this is stupid for some reason.  We also leave a small120v AC electric heater/drier running.    Helps to keep any water in the bilge from freezing. 

[PeteW]

Before I say anything you should read this paper:

http://www.qualitymarineservices.net/Neutral-Ground%20Bond,%20Exchange%20Article,%2012-2005.pdf

My boat has 6 separate buss bars.  AC ground (green/yellow), DC ground return (black), Bonding system Ground (green), RF Ground, and the AC neutral buss (white) and a  +12 V buss bar .

On my boat they are all wired to individual junction buss bars. I can measure high resistance between AC ground, and DC Ground.  Since the engine block is connecter to a propeller shaft,  DC ground and bonding system cannot be isolated from each other easily.  That being said, I have a single wire connecting AC ground to DC ground, DC ground to the  Bonding system Ground, and RF ground to Bonding system.

There must be no connection  ever between neutral buss and AC ground onboard when running on shore power. As the paper explains, this is done only at the source.  Its important to check for unwanted connections between AC ground and neutral shipboard. This can be tested with an ohm meter with the shore power removed.  If you have a charger inverter the IEC required that the inverter make that connection between ground and neutral at the source which is now the inverter. A properly designed crossover switch will float the shore neutral at the input but connect it to AC ground at the output. The isolation of the inverter prevents this from becoming a hazard to swimmers.

For obvious reason your galvanic isolator goes in series with the AC ground from the shore power socket. With your bonding system connected to shore power the galvanic isolator will keep your zincs from protecting you  neighbors and everyone else in the marina at your expense.

The 12V buss bar has a main 50A breaker emergency. Everything in the house although fused and switched separately goes through goes through that one breaker. Its the one I pull if there is an electrical fire.


Pete

[Dale Tanski]

I was hoping Pete would hop in on this one but he only provided the highlights.  I will read the article he supplied and that might provide the details.  This issue is a Pandora's box even in the best of boat yards and builders sheds.  You have opened a mother load of questions.

Dale

[PeteW]

Dale,
You are certainly right on that . Bonding and grounding techniques have become a very contentious issue. By now I have read and heard all the arguments. And some of the alternate views on this topic come from people in the industry that I have a great deal of respect for.

These views all seem to stem from the singular goal of avoiding electrolysis. I don't know if its the price of zinc or the misguided opinion that electrical standards are a form of gubment interference. I have been told to simply cut all my bonding wires off and do not connect any ground to any other ground. I was told the worst thing you can do is put a underwater bonding plate on the hull. I was told of a lightning strike blowing that plate off and sinking the boat in under a minute. The argument is that bonding systems attract lightning. When I told him he would need a ground for his SSB radio he told me he needed an antenna that required no ground. I steered him to an antenna balun that would accomplish this.

Despite the best efforts to isolate, the prop and engine on any boat is bonded to the water, and the DC ground is connected to this bonding system. The AC ground on the TV, refrigerator and microwave is floating, but what he doesn't know is that the neutral is bonded to the AC ground back at the transformer on the dock. A short from line to case on these appliances will pop the breaker thanks to the electrical standards.

The thing about electrical standards is they are the rules everyone connected to the electrical grid needs to follow for them to be effective in preventing electrocution. Bottom line for me is any hunk of metal on this boat that is not a UL approved appliance could now be connected to the 110VAC line and nothing would happened until some innocent person grabs it. Like the diver that cleans his prop. The entire 12VDC system could now be sitting at 110 VAC and everything would still be working until you touch the UHF radio and the microwave at the same time. Lightning striking the antenna would find a path through the 12 system in the boat, fry everything connected to it on its way to the propeller and probably set the boat on fire because of the insufficient gauge of wire. (Factoid: Soldered lugs in bonding systems should be avoided because a lighting strike will melt the solder.)

And I would not want to be near any chain plate down below in an electrical storm. With no clear path to ground dissipate even normal static electricity, an actual lightning strike would turn that main salon into a fire storm.

With all due respect to all the shipwrights that are first rate carpenters and riggers and such that say they know better, I'm sticking with what the IEC, ABYC standards says to do. Its my expert opinion as well and I believe I have the creds to say that.  You know I might want to get a marine survey or a USCG courtesy inspection someday. The best advice I can give for electrolysis is get a galvanic isolator.

Pete

[Dale Tanski]

Never ask a question you really don't want the answer to.  Pete turned Pandora's box inside out with this one.  Without question, an excellent set of answers/opinions to the thorny issue known as marine bonding/grounding. 

In summary, it would appear Pete believes in a separate ground system for your 12 volt system (negative side of the battery) A separate system for any metallic item above and below the water line that is not a typical conductor complete with external bonding plate.  A separate system for 120 VAC ground and a system for 120 VAC neutral.

Where it gets screwy is that the engine, V-drive, transmission and prop shaft would typically be considered a non-typical conductor except that the engine itself is connected to the negative side of the 12 volt battery system through the starter circuit.  This means that now the 12 volt dc system is attached to the stand alone ships bonding system. 

The same thing can be said about an appliance such as a battery charger. It is supplied by 120 VAC and converts that to  12 VDC.  In that magic box the 120 VAC ground (green or non-insulated wire) could be connected to the 12 VDC negative side through a component in the box.  This would mean that the 120 VAC ground is now connected to the 12 VDC system which is connected to the ships bonding system. 

My boat is wired very similar to Pete's except I do not directly/intentionally connect the AC to the DC system.  I also tore out all of the copper foil from the past owner/owners SSB equipment.  In short I think we are both right...

Dale