Sail Quotes

[S/V Passage]

We plan to sail around the Great Lakes for the next 2 years and then we plan to head out to the east coast and sail down to the Caribbean/Central America. After that we don't know, but going around the world isn't out of the question either.

We tend to try and think very far ahead and research things, but I think that when we close sails, it will be with High Aspect Dacron. We are budget sailors, and also plan to be live aboard cruisers. Keeping this in mind, we are trying to balance cost with quality and longevity. Our boat is not new and was neglected by the previous owner for 3 years on the hard, thus it has a lot of work to be done. We are doing a lot of the work ourselves to both better allocate the funds and to better understand our boat. If you would like more background on our plans or what we are doing feel free to check out our blog.

I know the importance of having good sails, but what I am having difficulty with is really understanding the reasons why there are soo many price differences from place to place. As with other things in life, I am willing to pay a bit more for quality, service, and convenience, but I am seeing such a variance between companies regarding cost that I'm struggling to understand what goes into sail cost. For example, we got a quote from a local rep from Quantum & another sailmaker (Hong Kong) at the Annapolis Boat Show that is less than half what the local guy quoted, including shipping (see below).

Quantum
www.quantumsails.com/      
Sail            
Mizzen (2 reefs)   $1,226         
Main (3 reefs)   $2,614         
Genoa (2 reefs)   $2,662         
Code 0 Drifter   $2,787         
Shipping   $210         
Total   $9,499         
            
Hong Kong
www.hksailmakers.com
         
Sail            
Mizzen (1 reef)   $500         
Main (2 reefs)   $1,050         
Genoa   $1,560         
Code 0 Drifter   $770         
Shipping   $350         
Total   $4,230         
            
While they did quote us for fewer reef points in each sail, it's for high aspect 8.3oz Dacron so I don't think that the number of reefs account for the sails being less than half price. Price is really a determining factor for us at this point considering that we could put that other $5200+ towards rigging, teak work, or other necessary repairs. Could anyone help us understand the difference in pricing, and/or let us know if you know anything about either of these companies before we make a decision?

Thanks,

[Dale Tanski]

I'll take a shot at this one.  Some of the reason is that there are a few real oddities that stand out here, and the other being my kid is a sailmaker for Ullman.

1) You mentioned that you are willing to pay a bit more for quality, service and convenience.  I should hope that with in the first two years of Great Lakes sailing you will not need much service. If you do, Quantum would be convenient, Hong Kong not so much.  Once you leave you certainly will not get convenient service from a Hong Kong sail loft unless you end up over there.

2) High Aspect Dacron is a wonderfull cloth that should give you longer over all sail life.  According to my son it will not like being reefed as the cloth is oriented to carry the entire sail plan loading not just a section.

3) Reefs, why 2 in the mizzen?  Even one is a stretch.  If you are having difficulty carring the full 95 sqft, one reef will get you to say 80 sqft or so. If you can't carry that, just stow it. Nothing adds excessive weather helm in heavy air like a mizzen.
 
4) The real head scratcher is 2 reefs in a genoa?  I am assuming a 150% hank on here?  If the genoa is going to be built to carry in 30kts down on the 2nd reef and survive, it is going to be one sorry sail in 10 to 12 kts.  Perhaps a 150% and a separate 100% would be a better combination.

5) A code 0 on a P365 is probably not going to be very effective.  It is after all designed for the 5 to 10 knot wind range on a hull that can be driven in that little amount of wind with a bowsprit.  It is effective in wind angles of say 40 to 120 degrees apparent.  A P365 in 5 knots is a dog no matter what the wind angle is.  A P365 loaded with extended cruising provisions in 5 kts is a dead dog.  I would hate to invest $2k+ in a code 0 when you could be charging your batteries and making 6 kts vmg at 0 degrees apparent.  If the wind is aft of 90 degrees, go with an asymmetric chute.

6) Price - One can not purchase a Laser sail for $500 and it is only 76 sqft, has no reef points, comes without battens or numbers.  You can not purchase a class legal mainsail with battens for a Hobie 16 for under $1000, or for that matter a J-22 main for under $1200 and I think it is made from 6.7 oz.

As far as Quantum vrs Hong Kong, when your sails are delivered and you open them up, will you know by looking or feel that the cloth is an 8.3 oz. high aspect?  There are big differences in the best cloth manufactures cloth and the worst, but they will both have a label on the roll that says such and such an ounce and such and such a weave. I would take my chances with a brand name cloth.  We get beat by Quantum Sails on our J-22, they are a great loft or we just suck on occasion.  According to my son Eric, the Quantum numbers look high and the Hong Kong numbers look way low.  You can call and talk to him at 716-447-9766.

Dale

[barrylab]

I went with Doyle loft because they are local. They came out and measured everything before quoting. If it's cut to the spec, but not your boat, who pays to make it right?

[S/V Deo Volente]

Honk Kong builds to YOUR SPECIFICATIONS so if it matches the measurement you gave them it's your problem. If you know what you want and are ordering a basic Dacron sail you can save some money, I got exactly what I ordered but was very specific. I felt comfortable ordering mine because I have built a couple sails and done a fair amount of boat canvas work.
It's good to discuss what you are trying to accomplish with your sailmaker so you feel comfortable that they are interested in addressing your concerns. For example I built a Mainsail for a tender (easily healed) boat so I put a little less draft in the body of the sail but added a shelf to the foot with a reef just above the shelf. This gave a lot of draft in very light air and let you flatten it easily.
If your going to cross Oceans you have different priorities than the weekend Cruiser.

[POG]

This won't do much for the economy - but, just to show that there are many ways to skin a cat.  I can tell that my POG has not had a lot of use during her life.  One evidence is that she had the original Baxter and Cicero genoa, main and mizzen from 1977 when I laid my hands on her in 2010.  Granted, the main was baggy and and not good to look at.  The mizzen was way too thin to use as a storm sail or heaving-to sail.  The jib was OK but too short on the luff after having been modified for the furler.

I purchased a lightly used genoa, full batten main and heavy jib made by Elvstrom for a  Hallberg Rassy 34 for $60 total from someone with too much money to be content with these sails.  The luff of the genoa and the jib were shortened by the local North repair loft.  Cost $240.  They set beautifully on my furler.  The main was cut at the first reef by to give it the right luff length by my sailmaking crew Bob and an additional reef put in at the top.  Cost $30.  It is an acceptable main and far better than the old original.  I was given a heavy dacron full batten main off a Sabre 34.  That was chopped off to have the top replace my old mizzen.  A reef was put in to be able to present a really small canvas area in extreme weather.  This "new" mizzen is nicely flat and very strong and I am very happy with it.  Cost $10 to have the new reef cringle put in.  By the way, I have replaced the really lightweight mizzen gooseneck with something that can take a beating.

These sails may not be virginally white, marginally less than perfect, but they would get me around the world if I so desired.

Carl

[S/V Passage]

This has been very helpful. Thanks everyone. I think that we are going to go with Quantum just because of the service that they provide and the follow up and customization, but it's just soo darn expensive.

[s/v Norne Gaest]

We are installing CDI roller furling on the main and mizzen plus buying new sails with vertical battens. We are selling our old main and mizzen sails along with the 'stack-pak' type sail covers (I guess we can call them sail covers??). Anyway, the main is 6 years old and was made by Concord Point Sails (they also did the stack-paks). The mizzen is at least 10 years old and was made by Ulman-Skelly Sails. They're in pretty good shape and we'll sell them CHEAP.
take care,
Steve Weisbrod
s/v Norne Gaest
1976 Pearson #365 Hull#13
Currently in Havre de Grace Maryland