New to the board

[Bay Sailor]

Hello all,

I will be making an offer an a 365 Sloop on Friday morning, but I'd like to ask some help with a couple of items before I go too far. I would really value your experience and if I can buy the boat after inspections you will undoubtedly find me here as a regular.

1. Can someone provide me with a drawing of the hull shape of a 1980 Sloop? I have no idea what is below the water line but think it is a modified fin with skeg hung rudder and encapsulated ballast. I've read here that a boat yard could inadvertently sling it improperly and destroy important gear when the boat is hauled. (Or is this just for the ketch?)

2. The boat is fitted with the Westerbeke 40 and V-drive transmission. I've been told that the v-drives are somewhat unusual, etc. I can see here on the board that all of you are impressively positive about your vessels and that is quite encouraging to me. But the question is whether or not I should only buy the boat knowing in advance that I'll need to re-power in order to feel confident of the engine and tranny when I am halfway around the world a year from now. This is a biggy.

3. What item or items should I and the surveyor be particularly mindful of when inspecting the boat? The owner has shown me the mast step and pointed out that it has been cut down 3" due to corrosion/weakening and thus is now sitting upon a specially fabricated "foot" that prevents any future problems. Is there anything other than this that you can point me at?

The only boat I've owned, and that was some years ago, was an Islander 28 -a fabulous bay boat here on SF Bay. But compared to the P365 in size and complexity she was just a tender babe and so it will be easy for me to overlook important "gotcha's".

Last item is that I believe there are at least a couple of you who sail here on SF Bay and I hope if you read this that you will contact me to chat.

Many thanks, in advance,

Mark
(Bay Sailor)

[slokat]

My understanding is that the hulls are all identical, no matter the rigging style.

One drawing from the original literature.

The V-drive is in addition to the transmission so that the engine can be placed aft (& facing backwards).

[SailingSeaDragon]

Mark,

The hull on the sloop, ketch, & pilothouse are the same.. The cutter has a different hull configuration. For more details see:

http://www.sailingseadragon.com/Specs.htm

Garner

[Bay Sailor]

Slokat and Garner:

Thank you for you help. Since you didn't mention the transmission or V-Drive I'm assuming that neither are a special 'negatives' about the boat. Also, you did not mention any particular items that I should be watchful of during a survey and so I will assume there's nothing pressing in that department either.

I'll let you know how things go. By the way, there is no broker involved. Do you have any tips about handling escrow, lien searches and the like? Perhaps a checklist online somewhere? Any help will be appreciated.

Mark

[SailingSeaDragon]

Mark,

The V-drive was common in the 70's and allowed the engine to be moved out of the saloon and further aft.. The Walter V-drive is still in production and parts are readily available (I just replaced the seals in mine)..


I strongly urge you to make any offer on a boat contingent on a complete survey by a qualified surveyor. No boat is in perfect condition (contrary to what the current owner tells you) and the survey will provide you with an honest report on what you are getting into. And of course, armed with the survey, you can negotiate price or repairs should something serious be uncovered.

Some common problem areas with the 365:
   1. Mast step... Make sure the bottom of the mast is in good shape where it rests on its step... If not, this is no big deal (but big dollars). This is an easy fix but it will cost $1,500 to $2,000 plus few days to have it fixed....
   2. Bent propeller shaft from improper lifting. Once again easily fixed with a hand full of $100 bills..
   3. Fuel tank leak.... The Pearson 365/367 fuel tanks appear to have 25 to 30 year life.. You guessed it, no big deal just more money and time to fix.
   4. Last keel damage... The 365 has deep sump in the aft portion of the keel that can be damaged if grounded on rocks or coral.. Of course this can be fixed but it can also be real mess.
             5. Water tank blistering and broken baffles. These boats have fiberglass tanks with a standard gelcoat finish that blisters easily if water is left in the tank... The tanks hold 50 gallons of water and the sloshing around in heavy seas takes its toll on the tanks.  Not much you can do if this is the case.. There are several discussion on this board on how others addressed the tank issue.
   

I hope this is helpful.

Garner

[eveningebb]

Mark,

There are some long posts on what to look out for when you are examining a 365.  You've already checked the mast step.  If the fuel tank has not been replaced, you should also check under the fuel tank to see if it is leaking.  Slip a hand under the front of the tank (between the engine and the tank).  Make sure you don't come up with a handful of diesel.  The fuel tank can be replaced, but it's nice to know about problems before you buy the boat rather than finding out about them after the check has cleared.  Other than that, remember the boat is 30 years old and things will need work.  Carefully go through the systems and try to understand what's been done by the previous owners. 

I don't know what kind of transmission the boat you are looking at has installed.  Many of the original transmission were upgraded to Velvet Drive Hydraulic transmissions.  The V-drive can be rebuilt if there are problems.  People re-power their Pearsons because of engine issues, not because of problems with the V-drive or the transmission.

Best,

Dirk

[Bay Sailor]

Thanks to all. I'll see the boat again in the morning and talk with the seller about a price. Also, I've read extensively here on the forum and I'm amazed at the "feeling" of this one as compared to the two other forums where I read/write. Here, you give each other (and myself) the real value of your experience with this thing or that and it's clear that you intend success for the other guy. It's a great site and a true community.

M

[Bay Sailor]

Gentlemen: I made an accepted offer on the 365 sloop I've been looking at. The marine survey is next Wednesday and I'm waiting for a return call from the person I'd like to check out the engine. By the way, the current owner has already replaced the original fuel tank with 2 new ones. Naturally, I'm extremely eager for survey results.

Surveyor typically goes up the rig for an additional $150-. Seems like a good idea to me although he has said he cannot know for sure if the tangs and other components are any better than they look, which also makes sense. With a little luck things will proceed happily.

Mark

[Bay Sailor]

Thanks, Gordon, I'll add this last one to the list of things during survey, and will also pay extra for the mast inspection. I don't understand why the surveyor states that he cannot really determine if the tangs and other fittings need replacement. He did say that at the first major haul out, now or during the year, unstep and strip everything in and on the mast and thus reset dependability back to 100%. This I do understand.

As for "chine plates", this is a term I do not know. Is this the same as "chain plates" to attach shrouds?

Last, and not to wear out your hospitality, I don't know exactly how to find Rich's post as you describe.

More thanks, and I hope your weekend is a good one.
MF

[RayNWanda]

 Mark, the reason the surveyor cannot tell you much about the chain plates is that to do a good inspection they need to be pulled out. They need to be dye checked for cracks, the bolts need to be inspected or preferably replaced. All this takes too much time for a surveyor to do during a survey. He can do a quick visual on some of them, but there are too many for him to check thoroughly. Most are hidden behind cabinetry. The good news is that you can do all this yourself. Pull them out one at a time, use the halyards for mast support if needed. The dye check is a simple procedure. Get them clean- all paint has to be removed. You spray the chain plate with a degreaser ( I usually use brake cleaner ), Spray on the penetrant and let it soak. Be careful with the penetrant- the only thing it does not stain is air. Wipe the chain plate with a clean rag and spray on the developer. The developer is a spray powder. Any imperfections will tend to hold penetrant and show up as a red line in the developer. Scratches will show up too, so any indications will need to be cleaned up and inspected closely to determine if you are looking at a crack or just a scratch.
We rewired our mast while it was on the ground. There is a track inside the mast for sail slugs. The harness attaches to the slugs and is fed in, usually from the bottom. That is how we did it. Looking back at it, I wish we had used conduit attached to the slugs and left the wiring loose inside the conduit. That way we could use a damaged wire to pull in a replacement wire if needed with the mast up. We did leave a string inside both masts.
One thing we have learned about haulouts- There is not much room between the rudder skeg and the prop. It is very easy for the lift operator to snag the prop and bend the shaft. Last haulout I backed the boat in and used a line on the lift strap to hold the strap back against the rudder skeg. The strap slipped in where it needed to be first try. As the lift operator starts to lift, check to make sure the shaft will turn by hand. If it does not, he has snagged the prop and needs to reset the sling.
Let us know how it goes. A lot of us have done some pretty extensive work on our boats. Somebody here can probably answer your questions.

[S/V Deo Volente]

 "I lift it from just after the front of the the keel and just before the skeg. "

That is where I have always lifted my boat. The "blueprint" diagram I got with the boat shows that is where Pearson thought it should be lifted.  The other sling is in front of the keel.

[RayNWanda]

 "To my thinking this is a weak spot on the keel as it is hollow inside, in fact I always block the keel only on the forward to mid section of the keel to keep the weight off this area."

Exactly right. When we bought Abracadabra, She had been blocked up at both ends of the keel, and had been sitting in the yard for about a year. The stands had settled, and the keel was cracked on both sides of the bilge. I discovered later that the oil from the bad engine had been drained into the bilge. The "cracks" turned out to be an oil soaked, delaminated mess. The entire bottom of the bilge had to come out.

"I lift it from just after the front of the the keel and just before the skeg. "

That is where we are lifting too. I have found that using a line to hold the strap against the front of the skeg will get the strap in between the prop and skeg easily.

[Bay Sailor]

Thanks to all the input. At the haulout the owner will preside of course, and he's been through this at least a few times to paint the bottom. I'll take the cross sectional drawing of the boat with me though to ask if this has been his practice ( "I lift it from just after the front of the the keel and just before the skeg. "). What is it that you do to hold the aft lifting strap up against the curve of the skeg? There isn't a lot of space to be sure you've snuck it in behind the prop. The seller -an extremely decent man, seems to know his boat from stem to stern and so I expect he's been very careful in this regard. By the way, when I scheduled the haul I made a point of saying this hull shape lends itself to damage at the prop/shaft when lifted. Naturally, I was told not to worry, they'd lifted thousands of boats. True enough, but not mine, and between me and the seller there will not be much taken for granted.

By the way, the seller tells me that he is giving me his IBM laptop with all the nav software loaded and set up for his handheld GPS. He seems tremendously generous, for which I am immensely grateful.

Mark

[RayNWanda]

 What we do to hold the strap in against the skeg is back the boat in to the lift. This also keeps the roller furler away from the crossmember on the lift. If an interference problem comes up, the running backstays can be slacked easily. We put a line on the lift strap that is going under the stern. Once the strap is above the bottom of the skeg, the strap can be flattened against the front of the skeg by pulling on the line. The strap will then slide up between the skeg and prop without hanging on the prop. Remember to rotate the shaft by hand as soon as the strap starts to get tension on it just to be sure it has not snagged the prop. This method has worked well for us.

[Bay Sailor]

Will do. Thanks.