Paragon SAOD Problems.

[Henri Hali]

Thanks guys!
I'm very relieved by your responses.
One more question.
I've adjusted both forward and reverse a number of times over the past years. I've never been comfortable with the settings. Here's why. In other postings the guideline is to adjust to the point of no slippage. (Here's where I prove my total ignorance) I really don't know when it's slipping or not. As I said in my previous posting, I secure the boat to the slip, I put the trans in forward and the boat moves forward. I put it in reverse, it moves in reverse. How can I tell if the trans is set to it's optimum?

your insight would be greatly appreciated.


Henri Hali
SV Windrider Hull 316

[graemek]

Hi
I can only tell you the way i set mine up ,when the yacht is under way slowly increase the engine speed in forward gear the boat speed will increase  as the engine speed goes up ,If the engine speed goes up and the yacht stalls out at 4 to5 knots but the engine speed still keeps rising adjust up anuther click then try again,with revers ,with the lever down "no drive" push down hard prob 4-6 lbs revers drive,i can hear mine in revers when its biting,hop this is of help,ocean pilgrim

[RayNWanda]

 What you need is a phototach or better yet, a tach set up on the shaft or coupling behind the transmission. Then you would be able to compare engine rpm and shaft rpm. This should detect clutch slippage pretty early and therefore extend the life of the clutches quite a bit by telling you when you need to adjust.
Without a means to compare rpm, the clutch is probably slipping pretty badly and making a lot of heat by the time you realise you have a problem. Each time it gets hot, a little damage is done...

[wedelstein]

Your forward cluch pack is slipping. The slippage creats heat. There is a locking screw that secures a threaded ring that sets the pressure on the forward cluch pack. It is hard to see as it is pretty dark in there. You may be able to adjust the slippage out of the pack by backing off the locking screw and rotating the ring in the direction of the pack. You hope that there is still enough surface left. Change the fluid. you dont want too slippery fluid. I used 90 weight gearcase fluid. The normal was 30 weight oil. I wonder about AFT transmission fluid. What does other people use.

The reverse cluch is the band around the planitary. The control shaft pulls a tapered draw plate. you adjust this by the bolt that has the slot that the draw plate slides.

Neutral is a different story. The two clutches never completly release therefore, they drag against each other. The shaft is never completely stopped.

[Henri Hali]

As Always, you folks have been most helpfull. My thanks to all of you for your input.

I'd like to explore some of your suggestions a bit further if you don't mind.
Wedelstein,my transmission was just rebuilt over the winter, so I should have plenty of surface on the clutch pack. When I got the transmission back from American transmissions in Maryand and before running the engine , I found I needed a lot of force to snap it into forward. I backed it off to where I felt it was more where I thought it should be.
I'm also curious what other members think about using 90 weight gear grease. I've always had 30 weight in it as the manual states. My Walters Vee Drive also calls for 30 weight.

RayNWanda's suggestion to look into a tach on the shaft sounds like a sure way to accurately set the clutches. My only concern is the accuracy of my engine tachometer. Or do you think that should not be an issue?
By photo tach do you mean a hand held tach that senses a spot on a shaft? That seems like the easiest of the two.  I wonder if Harbor Freight has one that would be good enough.

Ocean Pilgrim's analogy to hot coffee has also been helpfull. I now think mine may be hotter than that. Especially since I only moved the boat 2 miles at most when I checked it.

As I mentioned I'm not all that confident with American Transmission and am concerned I'll get lip service if I don't have my ducks in a row. And then there's the issue of them being in Maryland and me being in Branford CT.

I'll look forward to your comments and explore your suggestions this coming week.

This site is worth it's weight in gold!!!

Henri Hali SV Windrider Hull 316

[RayNWanda]

 I have a handheld phototach that reads a piece of reflective tape as it passes through the light beam. It works really well, about the only problem I have had with it is when I put a piece of tape on a shiny shaft, but that is easy to overcome.
In this case, a piece on the front pulley and a piece on the shaft should read same-same rpm.

[wedelstein]

It sounds like your forward cluch plates are slipping. When they do they make alot of friction which makes heat. There is a set screw that locks a slotted nut on the planetary gearpack. It gets a little dark in there so it is hard to see. Rotate the gear to find this screw. It uses a straight blade. when you loosen the screw the slotted nut can be screwed in a few notches. This puts more pressure on the cluch pack. You will notice the forward detent on the handle will be a little more resistance and solid. Too much and you will not be able to put it in forward easily.  The forward cluch pack locks up the planitary sso that it does nothing in forward. You may need to replace the cluch plates it you have worn them out due to the slippage. The reverse must be ballanced against the forward. It is adjusted with a spring locked screw across the band around the gear pack. In reverse a tapered draw plated is pulled against the reverse adjustment screw and band. When applied it locks the band from turning thus making the planetary gears work.   

[dutchie]

Okay after reading this post I realised mine problem of falling back of trust when I increased the rev's above 2200 rpm could be the paragon slipping instead of a wrong dimensioned prop. so I tightened the forward clutchplates and voila 2500 rpm and 6,5 knots. Some of you will say maybe a little bit high in rev's voor that speed but mine hull is now in the water for three years and is in need the get cleaned and painted.

I was missing some technical info on how to but figured it out and will put some photo's to mine post day will speak for them self's i think 



I already took the 2 top screws out because the bracket for the engineoil extract pump is located at the top of it.





Do not unscrew the lockingnut completely but just enough to turn the adjusting nut



I extracted the ATF oil and put SAE 30 in it.

[Bay Sailor]

Just a couple of question if I may. If the transmission is difficult to put into reverse are there any 'quick checks' I can make to find out why, or is this characteristic of this 30 y/o transmission? Could it be a lubrication issue in the linkage someplace? Last, is there a rebuild kit for the trans or do you just pull it out and send away for a rebuild?

Thanks,
Mark

[Henri Hali]

Mark:
Having gone thru this epic and having had my tranny rebuilt, I'd say buy a rebuilt.
But before you do, can you give some more detail and describe what you mean when you say it's hard to put in reverse.
From my perspective the SAOD reverse sounds like hell when you put it in reverse, and since it does not "lock" into reverse, leaning on the lever is the only thing you can do. As I understand it, it's the nature of the beast.
Others have chosen to go with a Velvet Drive". I did not for several reasons. One the cost, two all the modifications needed, (Oil coolers, etc).
My "New" rebuilt has been in for three months and I'm still tweeking the adjustments and wondering if I got it right.
I'm pretty comfortable with the forward, but not so sure about reverse. I've also been challanged to find a setting where I can get her into proper neutral. It seems to be a very narrow window. She's either slightly in forward or slightly in reverse.

Dutchie's photos are a very good guide, and clearly shows you what to look for when you first open her up.

Do let us know your problem in more detail.

Henri

[Bay Sailor]

Henri:

When the engine survey was being done I was asked to set the transmission in reverse and then back to neutral. I believe the surveyor was checking linkages and such. I noticed it needed a hefty push down on the lever, although I don't recall having to keep it forced into the reverse position. The mechanic didn't make a big deal of this nor do I recall any loud noise when going from neutral to reverse, but it seems to me that if it is difficult to use today it will only get worse with time. On something this old I supposed it to be rust/friction/worn bushing.....?

I'm no hurry to pay for a rebuild and I seem to recall someone saying that the Paragon is not particularly complicated (to whom is another question). So, maybe as the new operator I should just tear it down to make everything like new. Too hard, too crazy or both?

MF

[Henri Hali]

Mark:
The hefty push down may be an indication the reverse needs to be tightened. Follow Dutchie's post.

This discussion has gotten me thinking about how I put her in reverse. I've had Windrider since 1998. Since day one I've leaned hard on the lever when in reverse. I don't let up until I want neutral or forward.  Is this over kill? How do you other folks do it?

If you feel capable of rebuilding it yourself, go for it. I'm fairly competent mechanically, I've removed the tranny four or five times, it only weighs about 60 pounds. but not enough tackle things requiring thousands of an inch (or millimeters for Dutchie) tolerances.
Rust should not be an issue. Bearings, shaft wear, clutches and seals could be.

Keep us posted.

Henri

[Bay Sailor]

I suppose the right thing to do is live with it a while and see what happens. I'll probably take a look at linkage and whatever is visible, but your experience indicates this might not find something solvable at that area. Maybe some of the other guys have experience with this also. For the moment it doesn't seem to be critical. I'll be watching here to see what info comes in.

Mark

[Nelson]

Hello Henri,
Parts for the Paragon SAOD can be ordered through any Twin Disc clutch distributor. I rebuilt my 2 years ago for a little less than 200.00 in parts. Took about 6 hrs to disassemble, clean and reassemble. If you need it, I can upload a PDF file of the repair manual. Need your email.

Nelson Tolar
Dancing Rabbit
No. 136
Mobile, AL

[Henri Hali]

Nelson:
Where were you $2,400 ago???
I'd love to get a copy of the manual nonetheless. My email is hendrik@snet.net
I don't know how to post it as an automatic email address. (I'm very computer literate challenged.)

If you've read through my "opus", you may have picked up that I have a tad of concern about the outfit that rebuilt my unit.

Do you have any insight on the noise issue when putting the SOAD  in reverse? The only way I can describe it is that it is much louder than when in forward. For all I know this may be perfectly acceptable, but I have a lingering doubt.

Looking forward to hearing from you,

Henri