Spinnaker/Whisker Pole/Mast Ring

[Jordan]

I'm working on refurbishing a free whisker pole. I am probably going to wind up getting new ends for it. And as I started looking into it, I realized I don't have a spinnaker ring on the mast. What kind of setup do you have when you need to pole out a sail?

[P69]

Depends. . .
Where will you store the pole: mast or deck?
If on deck, use the stock setup of a 4' piece of  1 1/4" T track  on the fwd face of the mast and sliding ring.
Simplest is fixed ring at the average height, but then you lose the ability to adjust height.

Pole topping lift is also very helpful (but not necessary), do you have one?

If on mast, you're looking at $1500 - $2000 for storage hardware and  you should also have on-deck storage for heavy weather because if stored on mast and mast goes overboard, so does the spinnaker pole.

Attached is a simplified diagram for on-mast storage

Before going the on-mast route, read this, especially paragraph 2 RE: binding.
https://www.forespar.com/verticalPoleStorage_techTip.shtml


Below is a list of most of the parts needed. Forespar has a monopoly on this small market and their hardware prices reflect that control.

• Mast car
  Car FC125 if your inboard end is a UTR (like the outer end)
  Toggle Cars T-125 if you the inboard end is a socket end (UTS end)
  
  Inboard end fitting
  TS/UTS wtih car T125
     ... or....
  UTR/EXP with Car FC125
  https://www.mauriprosailing.com/us/category/Forespar-Spinnaker-Whisker-Poles-Poles-End-Fitting.html
  https://www.mauriprosailing.com/us/category/1-Forespar-End-Fittings-Auto-Socket-TS-UTS.html
  
  Forespar Vertical Pole Storage chock for upper end to reduce vibration: FOR335101
  
  A fixed lower chock
  Something Like Forespar Chock  2.0 in, FOR300002 to keep lower end fixed when not in use
  
  Misc parts
  
  
  
  • cheek blocks: 2 
    Cam cleats with keeper: 2
    
    Eye straps: 2
    SS thimbles: 2 (for rope-eyestrap)
    Blocks to fasten to car: 2 
    Little U shackle with 3/16" pin to fasten blocks to mast car (2)
    Enough 3/8" line.
    

[SVJourney]

+1 for the topping lift.  I added one, cheaply, and it made it easier and allowed better sail performance.

[Jordan]

Yeah, I'll be storing it on deck. I try to avoid unnecessary weight aloft.

I've never actually taken this thing onboard, since I need some room as I try to get the pin to release.

Based on this:



I don't think I have a topping lift.



Obviously there is a lot more research I need to do. Probably not tonight, but maybe this weekend. Based on my understanding, I might actually have a mast car, but I've got to dig through my sailing hardware locker. The issue with this pole is that the pins are stuck. This is after 3 days treated with PB Blaster, hit with a hammer, and a torch was used. I was able to get one of the deck mounts off, but not the other one. It's not a high priority project, but I walk past it every time I get off the boat, so it's no biggie to mess with it a little. From what little research I've done on it, since this one is telescoping, it has some kind of internal mechanism, and it's not a quick change of the end fittings, but I'm not sure. And new end fittings would be when I'd look for one with a topping lift, right?

We actually have a spinnaker, but haven't gotten around to replacing the ... sock...line (?), and there is a small tear we need to fix.

[Jordan]

Oh yeah, I've got a mast car. Awesome. I'm going to mess with the pole in earnest now, and get that spinnaker repaired so by next weekend (when our one sail gets back), if the conditions allow, we can try out our spinnaker!! Still not sure about the pole, but we'll see. I am excited now, so that means motivated.

[P69]

If used with symmetrical spinnaker, you do need afterguy and foreguy.  The afterguy is really is the weather sheet, so technically, not part of the pole setup (topping lift, foreguy hold pole up and down). If used as a whisker pole to stick out the clew of genoa or asymmetrical spinnaker, FG and AG are not needed. topping lift still useful. Being telescoping, it  probably has enough strength as a whisker pole, but not a spinnaker pole; it might collapse when wind strength goes up. for light winds, you probably can get away with it  for a symmetrical spinnaker.

[Dale Tanski]

A telescoping whisker pole will not have the strength to be used as a spinnaker pole on a symmetrical spinnaker (square kite).  The telescoping mechanism will not have the where with all to resist the generated compression loads or the tension loads.  They also do not have sufficient strength to resist bending due to the compression loads.  Spinnaker poles are much bigger in diameter for that reason.

As for a pole being used on a asymmetrical spinnaker, they were specifically designed not to require a pole.  Asymmetrical spinnakers are designed to be used (on a cruising boat) when sailing off of the wind when the apparent wind is somewhere between 90 and 120 degrees off of the centerline of the boat.  For this reason there is no need to pole the clew out as a asymmetrical is more or less a reacher and are not designed to fly deep down wind such as a symmetrical spinnaker is (100 - 180 apparent).  On symmetrical spinnakers (square kites) the wind angle is so deep that the sail wants to escape to a position directly in front of the boat or even back into the vacuum of the mainsail. 

To keep that from happening, a pole is required to keep the kite off to the side. The deeper you go, the more forward the pole must go or the kite will collapse.  When the spin pole is in a position approximately 90 off of the centerline of the boat there are substantial compressive forces (the two ends want to meet in the center of the pole). As the apparent wind moves forward, the pole must move forward to keep the kite full, and the compressive loads convert to tension (the ends what to go their own separate way). Either way, unless you are using a whisker pole in very light air, it will not function as required. 

You will need a topping lift (holds the pole up) for a traditional square kite and a pole downhaul (keeps the pole from going too high).  Without those two controls, flying a symmetrical kite will be extremely difficult.  The only time it is done is when the boat is being gybed and the pole is released from the "tack" of the spinnaker (held by the guy) and attached to the other corner as the sail rotates out in front of the boat.  Gybing a square kite is a coordinated orchestrated effort between the driver, crew on the spinnaker sheet (which becomes the new guy) the guy trimmer (which becomes the new sheet) and the foredeck person who releases the pole from the spinnaker clew and reattaches it to the new clew.  This is all done with the assistance of the pit person that controls and adjusts the pole up (topping lift) and pole down (pole downhaul) controls so the pole is free to rotate.

During that moment when the spinnaker is flying disconnected from the spinnaker pole, (180 degrees apparent) it is free flying (presumably controlled only by the driver).  It is at that moment that often the thrill of flying the kite can go to an "oh shit" moment.  I would highly recommend that if you have the desire to fly a kite, that you get yourself on a race boat and observe the procedure several times before you commit your gear and your boat to the experiment, or invite an experienced crew to assist and fly yours.  Or... acquire an asymmetrical spinnaker which does not require a pole and attaches to the boat similar to a jib sail.  An asym can be flown by a small fraction of crew or even by one if it's set up correctly.  No, they don't sail way down deep but they do a respectable job for the average cruiser trying to get downhill.

The thought just occurred to me... Jordan do you know what type of a spinnaker you have? Asym or symmetrical?  Drag it up on a lawn somewhere and stretch it out.  Both are triangular shaped like every other sail, but one corner will have the smallest included angle.  That corner is the head (halyard goes there).  Once you have identified the head, fold the spinnaker in half the long way from the head.  If the two clews meet and the sides (luffs & leeches) are the same length, it is a symmetrical kite (you will need a pole).  If one side is longer, it is an asymmetrical kite.  The longest side will always be the luff (forward edge) and that corner is the bottom corner (tack).  The shorter corner is the clew just like your headsail.  The greater the differential in side lengths the more of a runner (deep) the sail was designed to be.  If the sides are very similar (5 to 6 feet different on a 36 footer) the more the cut of the sail was designed to be a reacher. Sailmakers designate asymmetrical sails by how deep they are cut.  An A1 for an example (A stands for asymmetrical, slang: A-sail) is cut for reaching. The bigger the number the deeper it was designed to go, A4 or A5.  Symmetrical kites are similar, S1 to say S5's.

Also, you will need a dedicated spinnaker halyard regardless of what type of kite you have.  A spinnaker halyard exits the mast from the very top, forward and outside of the head stay. Typically it is a block mounted on a bail that allows the block to slide from side to side (allows the kite to gybe).  You cannot use your jib halyard as it exits the mast underneath the forestay and the head stay will chew its way through the halyard in short order. 

In summary.

Symmetrical Spinnaker
1) Luff and leech same lengths
2) Must have fixed length spinnaker pole
3) Must have topping lift (pole height outer end control)
4) Must have pole down (pole height limiting control)
5) Must have dedicated spinnaker halyard
6) Must have 2 lengths of line approximately twice the length of the boat (sheet & guy)
7) Must have a winch that the current guy will go to, loads reach infinity and beyond when the pole goes toward the head stay.
Must have turning blocks as far aft as possible for the spin sheets to go through.
9) Must have sufficient crew and experience.

Asymmetrical Spinnaker
1) Luff and leech different lengths
2) Must have dedicated spinnaker halyard
3) Must have at least 1 length of line (sheet) approximately twice the length of the boat (2 if you are going to gybe)
4) Must have suitable (strong) tack point in front of the head stay or temporary tack point on head stay (ATN tacker)
5) Must have turning blocks as far aft as possible for the spin sheets to go through.
6) Much less crew, much less experience.

Good luck
Dale

[Jordan]

The thought just occurred to me... Jordan do you know what type of a spinnaker you have? Asym or symmetrical?  Drag it up on a lawn somewhere and stretch it out.  Both are triangular shaped like every other sail, but one corner will have the smallest included angle.  That corner is the head (halyard goes there).  Once you have identified the head, fold the spinnaker in half the long way from the head.  If the two clews meet and the sides (luffs & leeches) are the same length, it is a symmetrical kite (you will need a pole).  If one side is longer, it is an asymmetrical kite.  The longest side will always be the luff (forward edge) and that corner is the bottom corner (tack).  The shorter corner is the clew just like your headsail.  The greater the differential in side lengths the more of a runner (deep) the sail was designed to be.  If the sides are very similar (5 to 6 feet different on a 36 footer) the more the cut of the sail was designed to be a reacher. Sailmakers designate asymmetrical sails by how deep they are cut.  An A1 for an example (A stands for asymmetrical, slang: A-sail) is cut for reaching. The bigger the number the deeper it was designed to go, A4 or A5.  Symmetrical kites are similar, S1 to say S5's.

I think it might actually be a gennaker. It has its own sock, and it is definitely not symmetrical. I'll get it measured when we run our spinnaker halyard. Last time we raised it I used the jib halyard, but we have a sail up there now.

I don't really have a desire to have a kite specifically, I was mostly trying to figure out what this thing I have is and if it is of value. Based on what was said here, I'll probably only use it when going downwind to avoid accidental gybe, but we'll see. I need to do some measurements and stuff. So much to do before we leave this marina though.