365 Ketch - Hull 141

[jpendoley]

Regarding furling line-I think mine is 5/16 on my headsail furler. Thicker would be more comfortable but I don't think there would be enough room on my drum and I am only furling a 135.
Regarding alternator belts-yes on the green stripe-they last a long, long time.  I changed over to serpentine arrangement when I rebuilt the W40 because I got a lot of belt squealing, but that may have been due to the 125Amp alternator overloading the belt. almost no belt dust and no slipping now.

[Jordan]

Wifi at the marina is down, but I did pull out the sail for some photos. I added them to that album, but here it is inline.



At this point, even the winch on the sheets doesn't work unless I wiggle it around, furl it a bit unfurl it, etc.

So that drum is totally packed (not loose or gunked up or anything). I hope this actually explains what I mean better. My 5/16 line should be here tomorrow. I'm really hoping it will work out well. Also, I totally went overboard with my ideas of a pendant. I have some extra line, and I can just put a freaking bowline in if I wanted. I'm going to do that, instead of feeling all powerless to do it "right".

[Dale Tanski]

I find it interesting... this discussion regarding line.  Apparently the diameter is the determining factor that you all use to purchase line regardless of the application, or line construction.  Twenty years ago that was the case but today nothing could be further from reality.

Let's start with the "3/8 should be right on the furler" recommendation.  I have yet to see a drum on a furler sized correctly for a 36 foot boat that is designed to hold 3/8" diameter line in the length sufficient to roll up a 150% headsail.  I understand that a 3/8" diameter line would feel better on the hands than a more suitable diameter line, but if that were the criteria why not stuff it with 5/8" fluffy braid?  Unless you have a non overlapping headsail on your furler, your drum is likely not going to functionally hold enough 3/8" diameter line to do the job.  Jordan's case has proven that point.  I suspect looking at the images of his drum, 5/16" should more than be sufficient and will eliminate the problem of over stuffing. 

Next, "You will be in a world of hurt trying to drag that big 150 down in a squall if the 5/16 twine breaks". First off, a prudent sailor has the 150% rolled away long before the squall gets there. A good quality 5/16" diameter, (8mm) polyester jacket/polyester core yacht braid has a breaking strength today of around 3200 pounds depending on the manufacture.   Need I say more?  Now if you purchase a no name Depot House or Ebay special, who knows what the line was designed and built to withstand.  If you were to upgrade that polyester line to a polyester jacket/Dyneema core that same 8mm line has a breaking strength of over 7600 pounds.  As a reference, the typical 1x19 stainless wire cable used in your headstay that your furler is wrapped around on your 36 footer, has a breaking strength of 6300 pounds.
In the case of furlers, improper headstay tension (under tensioned) leads to excessive head stay sag which is the single cause for rotational resistance of the furling system. If your furler does not spin without excessive effort have your headstay sag checked and properly tension your headstay.

"Your sheets and halyards should be 1/2". Remember it might be your butt hanging from one." Where do I start....  On the typical 36 foot cruising boat, the halyard tension on a jib halyard with a furler is perhaps a couple of hundred pounds.  The halyard basically keeps the sail from sliding back down the luff foil so the tension is minimal.  even the cheapest Depot House line will do the job.  The mainsail is another story. Loading on a main halyard could reach several thousand pounds.  Again, a 8mm (5/16") polyester/polyester braid line has a breaking strength of 3200 pounds. Lets say your main halyard winch is a #16 (mine is).  This typically means that the winch has a built in force multiplyer of 16, so if you apply 1 pound of force the winch multiplies that force to 16 pounds.  If you were to apply 100 pounds of force to your winch handle it would mulitply that effort to around 1600 pounds.  Comparing the breaking strength of the 8mm line to the 1600 pounds clearly shows that you have around a 2 to 1 safety factor.  Does anyone really think 1/2" line will run freely through your halyard sheaves at the top of your mast or even the halyard box?  1/2" or 12mm polyester braid has a breaking strength of 7000 pounds by the way.

Now let's turn to line construction.  Back in the day when ships were wood and men were iron, manila rope was state of the art.  Fresh off of the spool new 1/2" manila line has a breaking strength of around 2300 pounds, 5/16" - 700 pounds.  Now looking at those numbers, the 1/2" halyard concept makes more sense.  The basic grade of yacht line today is manufactured with a polyester core and surrounded with a polyester jacket.  Polyester is what Dacron sails are made of, Dacron is the legal name for the material.  For the money it is the best value when looking at general performance and longevity.  For the average cruising or daysailer this product meets 90% of all their requirements.  A better grade of line would be constructed of a Dynema core with the same polyester jacket. This blend of materials typically doubles the breaking strength of the typical Ploy/poly line.  Performance goes up from there with a line equipped with a better grade Dyneema known as SK99 trippling the breaking strength of a poly/poly. Each step along the way adds in extra cost but depending on application provides required performance and reduces weight.
I have talked about nothing regarding line stretch.  For the cruiser, stretch is not retaliative.  It may even extend the life of your boats running rigging gear.  High performance low stretch lines do not absorb sudden loads from gusts or a wave into the headsail.  They are design specifically not to stretch transmitting every ounce of load to the hull through the rigging for an increase in speed performance.  A stretcher line absorbs some off the increased load and transmits the force more gently often saving a block or a mounting point from failure.  We have seen gear failures on good old boats from sudden high loads directly transmitted by ultra low stretch products.   

So as not to disappoint... I fully expect Dale to chime in here with a look of horror at the thought of climbing 3/8 line. the typical ploy/poly 3/8" (10mm) line is good for 4200 pounds.  The same size line with a SK99 Dyneema core dings the bell at 13,800 pounds.  At just around 200 pounds I would hang myself from the masthead on a 5/64" (1.8mm) SK99 Dyneema line as it has a rating of 850 pounds or better than a 4 to 1 margin of safety. 

One additional quality consideration regarding rope.  (By the way, it is referred to as rope while on the spool, line when it is cut and by its function when it is applied, such as a jib sheet.)  The type of weave is very important.  Many yarns need to be woven in a specific way and at a specific weave angle to optimize performance both in strength and handling.  Rope manufactures that weave strictly for cost per foot simply don't give a damn.  Often they make up for a low quality material selection of construction method with pretty colors (Home depot).  The selection of materials and the construction methods that comprise a length of line also dictate how the line physically handles in day to day operation.  Does you line Twist? Hockle? (self knot or bind while going through a fairlead or block)  Does the jacket pill or snag?  Turn into stiff wire after a year or so in the sun?  Each type of line has it best application.  Some are great for halyards while the same line would suck for sheets.  Unfortunately there are fewer and fewer people that are up to speed on today's choices and their best applications, still fewer behind the big box marine outlet counters. Annapolis Sailing Performance, APS, an excellent sailing oriented shop on the east coast (some will argue the best) recently went out of business (not COVID related) due to the Amazons of the world selling everything they no nothing about. You get what you pay for.

So... if we learned anything here it is the lines construction not diameter that should be considered when purchasing line. Diameter is a consideration when it comes to existing rope clutches and self tailers as well as comfort in the hands, but it must be tempered by application with caution.

You won't get this type of information at the typical West Marine store and certainly out of Amazon.  We don't sell 25,000 feet of line yearly out of a small shop in a place like Buffalo NY for no reason. Also... we don't have a single spool of 1/2" diameter line on our racks except for nylon anchor line, and the largest sailboat in Buffalo is a 52.  Oh, you could watch any number of Youtube videos made by people that know less that the majority of people watching them, or you could find a chandlery staffed by knowledgeable, honest people and reward them with your hard earned dollars.  Or.... you can continue to cling to misinformation and old outdated beliefs.  Either way, Good sailing.

Dale
Obersheimers
Maruska, Hull #40

[S/V AMITY]

   Just to add an unrelated dimension to the discussion, I use 3-strand for everything.  Certainly old school and likely I'm just a reactionary but have never liked the feel or "predictability" of braid.  All the new sheets, docklines, halyards, fender penants and all the rest are 3-strand on dear Amity.

  BUT, you say, properly spec'ed. braid is far superior for halyards because of its low stretch.  That is certainly true but in my world the difference in halyard stretch matters not a jot in our short (365) rigs.  The only braid lines left on Amity are the club, house flag & courtesy flag halyards... and those will be replaced before we launch in '21.

[SVJourney]

Wow Dale.  Thank you for the schooling!  The numbers were very informative.  And yeah, I can see where my old school training from 40 years ago is no longer relevant. Journey still had wire to rope halyards. I even replaced them with... wire to rope halyards. 
And I really do appreciate you chiming in.  That was the reason I mentioned you by name.
Could you and your shop do a running rigging kit specifically for a long term cruising 365?  Or would even that be too generic to apply to all the owners here?

[Jordan]

I don't know if it'd be helpful, but I can break out the itemized list. The invoice isn't quite as useful for the specific measurements of each piece, but it gave me a good idea as to how things are setup now.

[Dale Tanski]

SV
Each boat is rigged differently depending on what gear is aboard.  There are many of items such as main sheet that would be almost universal but for the most part sailors tend to customize their boat and equipment to their own desires. 
One thing we have learned is that many people purchase line by what color this is despite what we may suggest.   Then there is the situation where the Captain decides what type of line and the Admiral selects the color.   
Dale

[Jordan]

Well, this particular thread is about to be retired. We're going to go ahead and get her name put on the back, at which point I will do the rechristening, and I'll introduce you all to the new name as Kapala is struck from the records of the deep.

Got some safety gear, and some gadgets. Lot's of boat work going on. I have one more layer of gelcoat on my battery box for the 200Ah LiFePo4 batteries. That took a lot longer than expected due to the weather, but I'm feeling more comfortable with fiberglass work. I'm still not great at it, but I've managed to collect enough equipment that I can use polyester resin and gelcoat without using any disposable items (except the brushes). I've got a MEK dispenser, and silicone mixers/graduated cylinders, etc.

New VHF is being installed by the better half now, and I'm prepping for the configuration of the Inverter/Charger once the battery is hooked up. I did wind up going with 4/0 battery cables, just sized to the inverter, not use. Those will be here tomorrow, along with a neat heavy duty Hammer crimper. Should be cool. She's going up the mast at some point this week in order to replace the red/green navigation light halfway up, run the flag halyard to the spreaders, replace the windex, and install the B&G anemometer. Oh, between the B&G gadgets, the Victron Battery Monitor, the Inverter charger, and the new VHF, I actually am going to need to get my NMEA 2000 system setup.

Oh, and since our plans are solidifying, I did go ahead and splurge a bit. I got a 32" Lewmar folding wheel. Damn it makes life so much easier in the cockpit when not sailing, and actually works better than the original wheel, because there was play in the wheel before, since the ... key? ... and the hub of the wheel degraded together. We had to actually trim a bit from the key to get the new wheel on (not much, literally just hitting an edge with some 100 grit sandpaper for a minute or two (and some grease, and a deadblow hammer). Very cool.