Trip Report

[jpendoley]

Took my first extended cruise on my new to me 365 sloop. Very varied winds from dead calm to 50 kts in a squall. Dragged anchor in the squall, but the diesel saved the boat from dragging ashore in a mercifully brief thunderstorm in Biddeford -with 100 feet of chain and a 35 pound CQR-thank God we were aboard.

All systems performed very well, I love my leaky Perkins-lots of power and very smooth (as long as you keep adding oil). The sailing was great on runs and reaches, but pretty disappointing close hauled.  We took 13 hours to cover 45 miles close hauled with the motor running on the way home. The wind had been blowing south southwest for three days , seas were quite lumpy 4-6 with the occasional 8 footers and we had to head south for our return. Could only manage 160 degrees on one tack and 275 on the other. Does that correspond with others experience in terms of performance close hauled?

I know I take a performance hit with in mast furling, but have grown to appreciate its convenience too. When beating into the waves in 15-20 knots of wind, I found the lightest helm was with a reefed main and a full 125 unrolled.  When I rolled up the 125 to a 100, seemed I could point a little higher, but in general it was frustrating. Average speed was 5 knots COG with little current. Would appreciate hearing from others about what sort of performance they would have expected in the same conditions.

[SV Alfresco]

Jim,
I have a 367, so it's a little different,.I just bought a new mainsail and have a new boat  It points 10 to  15 degrees higher, rail is a foot or two higher,  and sails faster. I asked the  guy from Hood how old the old sail was. He said "I don't know but we haven't done that type of stitching in 25 years.

Mike

[jpendoley]

Mike,
The sails were new in 2006 and have been very, very lightly used and professionally sent out every year. They are from a good loft-North I believe. I'm most interested in what tacking angles people realistically achieve. Could be I just suck as a sailor, but I think it might be a design issue.  Has anyone installed inner tracks for jib sheet leads?

[Dale Tanski]

Jim,

As a North sail loft we see this type of thing quite regularly, the slow demise of a perfectly good sail.  Sails die over a period of many years.  Sun is the biggest culprit when it comes to structural integrity as UV takes its toll every hour the sail is exposed.  One of the more common repairs is restitching and 90% of that stems from sun damage.  The replacement of the UV protection on a furling head sail is another very common repair and all from sun damage.  A UV protective edge on a head sail only lasts around 5 to 7 years depending on what part of the country you are from. 

What needs to be stressed to the average sailor is that although a sail physically dies over a prolonged period of years, its usefulness in terms of shape disappears far more quickly.  Because both elements of a sail do so in very small increments over time, most people never realize it until they actually replace the sail.  At that point the most typical response is "wow, I didn't realize my old set were that bad." It is also helpful to realize that good periodic sail maintenance can only minimize slow, not stop it.

Sailors who race are more attuned to sail shape and how it relates to the boats overall performance.  Cruisers and day sailors on the other hand have a much different perspective on what constitutes a "good" sail.  For the most part, for this group of sailors if the sail catches wind and survives the outing it is a "good" sail.  One of the most common comments that we hear from a customer when we lay their inventory on our loft floor for evaluation is that the sails "look good".  Under our breath we most commonly reply, "to who?"  We do our best to educate and inform but routinely repair on the owners insistence, old worn out sails that are worth nothing more than painters tarps.  We get the same comment about their bottom paint, it "looks good". The problem of course is how it preforms...  not what it looks like. 

Racers on the other hand are far more willing to replace their inventory on a regular basis. It is safe to say that the majority of boat owners have never had a new set of sails.  Most boat owners fly the sails that came with the boat and sell the same sails with the boat to the next owner, and so the pattern continues. To the dialed in racer, a new set of sails is good for one regatta. We often sell a one regatta old set of sails for a competitive one design sailor, so they can purchase a new set for the next regatta.  New sails allow a good racer to hold their lane, correctly adjust the captured power to the boat and sail just a few inches per mile more than their competition in the same amount of time.  In many cases if the racer is accomplished, makes less mistakes than the next team, sails are the difference in podium positions.

So as a cruiser, how does possessing truly good sails benefit you?   Quite simply height and speed, just the things you are questioning about your boats performance.  Improved performance is measured in a few degrees and tenths of a knot, but over that 45 miles it computes to a world of difference.  You are correct, an in mast furling main does negatively impact a boats overall performance unless it was designed and factored into rig and sail plan from the beginning.  Less sail area is less horsepower and the negative roach required to eliminate the battens required for rolling does just that.  The in mast furling requirement also means that the sail is built board flat otherwise it would not roll neatly, another performance detractor.

Roller furling head sails are just that, roller furling, not necessarily roller reefing.  A normal head sail once rolled up looses the majority of its desired shape.  That loss of shape means loss of point and yes speed.  There are ways to improve that shape while rolled with the addition of foam strips installed in the luff. As the sail rolls around the head stay extrusion, the ends always get tighter causing a undesirable sag/bag in the middle.  Progressively thicker foam strips compensate for the end roll issue and actually roll the center of the sail in further with each wind creating a better shape.  No roller sail will out preform traditional cut sails but they are getting better. 

With all that said, now factor in years of stretch, overpowering, abuse and sun damage.  Be mindful that each time the individual threads in the sail bend back and forth they begin to break, much like you bend a paper clip back and forth too many times.  Each tack, each luff, each fold, each furl and every time your leach flutters, fibers are weakened and your sail dies a little.  Salt is another killer.  Salt under the microscope is a sharp edged, crystalline cutting machine. 

I think you would be surprised what a set of new skins would do for your good old boat when it comes to performance, but we always tell our customers there are more things to consider.  How is your bottom? Does it look "good" or is it really good?  Is it 14 pealing layers of dead rough whatever?  Is the rig correctly tuned?  How much head stay sag do you have when the rig is loaded? Are you aware or do you adjust boat heel, out haul tension, traveler height, car position?  Many day sailors/cruisers we see don't even adjust basic sail trim. That's OK if your focused on the cheese tray but if you are trying to get somewhere hard against the wind in 6 footers at night that's another issue.  Weather you are a racer or a cruiser, its typically not the boat.

For you or anyone else reading this, please feel free to contact us for additional advice or help.

Good Sailing
Dale Tanski
Obersheimer Sailor Supply
Buffalo North

[Dale Tanski]

I'm not saying a 2006 sail is junk, what I am saying is it is 10 years old and probably not what it used to be.  There are a few ways to tell how well a sail has aged in terms of sail shape outside of the calendar date.  The best way is to string it up on the boat and take it out for an evaluation.  This by far is the preferred way, but not the most time effective from a sail makers point of view as it often takes hours. 

While underway, the sail maker can not only determine the current shape under the current conditions of the sail in question, but also evaluate the relationship between the head sail and the main (the slot).  Various adjustments can be incorporated to determine if they can provide a sufficient solution for any problems observed.  These would include halyard tensions, main out haul, cunningham, sheeting angles, head stay sag, back stay tension.  They will typically site the spar to determine mid spar sag and tip roll off or hook, all of which greatly effect the pointing ability and power capture.  A good sail maker will take images at precise locations of the sail plan to evaluate the shape.  North sails even have stickers of cameras on their sails for just that purpose.  The sails draft and its fore and aft position along the cord of each sail can then be studied and determined and hopefully adjusted. 

Again, all of this takes time and the relationship you have with your sail maker is important.  You will notice I said your sail maker. A sail ordered out of the back of a magazine or a who knows where web site does not come with any of the above.  I would never order a sail from anyone that does not actually measure your boat unless it is a strict one design boat like a J-24 where they are very identical.  As a North loft we measure each and every boat in person. The form we use is approximately 19 pages long and includes every imaginable associated item you can think of.  That data is loaded into a computer and it becomes very obvious very quickly if something is not right.  The computer generates a 3D wire frame model that we can virtually manipulate with the touch of the mouse.  The only time we do not measure a boat and it rig, is if the customer waves that function for say... the rig is down or the boat is 1000 miles away.  In this case the owner assumes the responsibility that the boat is as it came from the factory.  Even then there are dimensions of a flat rig that are very useful for a tailored fit.  I can tell you from years of experience that it is not unusual that two identical boats are indeed not identical.  It was either produced that way or has been modified by a myriad of owners through the years. Never tell a sail maker to just copy the sail that you have as you will end up with a brand new old shaped sail.  Sails are very expensive, why cut corners or settle for crap to replace crap?

Again, your relationship with your sail maker is very important. We see your boat and we often see you sail it. This means that we often know what you do or don't know and the problem may not be your sails. For the most part, a sail maker will assume your house is in order and the boat and rig is proper when you bring your sails to their loft.  At that point the most common way to evaluate the sails themselves is to lay them out on the loft floor.  How they naturally lay out is most telling to a sail maker. Does the luff hook one way or the other. Does the sail lay flat or does it have an area where it is "bubbled up".  If it is laminated sail is there any delamination?  The next thing we commonly do is fly the sail by attaching it by all three corners and suspending it off of the floor simulating it connected to the rig.  How a sail lays during this test is again very telling.  A sail maker can also ascertain if the sail can be modified to correct observed flaws by adjusting tension here or there.  These on the floor observations and tests can typically identify most issues with a sail.  During the look see a sail maker will evaluate the "feel" of the cloth, inspect the higher loaded connections to determine the level of prior abuse, and check for tell tale signs of sunburn (UV damage).  We also evaluate the construction of the sail no matter who made it to ascertain if it was done correctly for its age to begin with, and any repairs that have been conducted along the way.  A poorly done repair can do more damage than one can imagine. 

A great sail is a technological work of art.  Gone are the years of "feel" and "magic".  Sails today are designed by computer utilizing years of data and input.  You will notice I never mentioned how a sail looks.  Many people will tell us their sails are bad simply because they are mold stained or have rust on them.  It's not about appearance it about performance. 

The best way to make a boat point better is to increase its speed.  The faster it travels trough the water the more lift the keel and rudder will generate and the better it will preform to windward. The more lift generated the better it will point. As an example, if an airplane is traveling at sufficient speed the wings, (its sails) will generate enough lift to lift tons and tons of payload. If the speed drops off, down it all comes and no matter what angle one tries to steer it slides sideways. The quickest way to a faster boat is a good bottom and better preforming sails.  Please note I mentioned your bottom again.  The reason for this is that it is the lift generated by your underwater foils that pushes the boat upwind.  Because the viscosity difference between air and water is so great (approx. 55 times as much) the shape and surface condition of the wetted surface is so very critical both in drag and lift.

Good Sailing
Dale Tanski

[jpendoley]

Hey Dale,
Thank you for a great write up and a sailmakers perspective.  I do have a lot of good lofts here in New England and will see if I can get a sailmaker out with me to assess the life left in my sails.  That said, given a reasonable set of sails (new or otherwise)  I would like to hear what are reasonable expectations for pointing ability on these boats 40 degrees either side of the true wind direction? 45 degrees, 50 degrees? something different?  Pounding into a head sea is exactly what I expect to have to do.

Its a cruiser not a racer and I get that, just want an idea of what I should aim for before I sink more $ into the boat.  Pounding into a head sea in the lewward islands is a pretty predictable situation if I head south and I'd like to know what to expect and aim for so I don't over invest. The roller furling main is great for safety (I think Dodge Morgan single handed around the world with an in mast furling main) and convenience for this 57 year old sailor, but I would consider rerigging if it would make a big difference-but if 50 degrees either side of the wind is all I could ever reasonably expect, I might focus more on an engine upgrade then a sail upgrade.
Jim

[Dale Tanski]

Jim,

The tacking angle of any boat of course depends on the quality of the sails and how they are trimmed, the perfection of the underwater foils, (drag) and the ability of the driver to sense and balance all of the above.  Just because a boat is steered at a certain angle off of the wind doesn't mean that the boat is actually advancing to that point on the horizon.   Shoal draft boats such as our P365s tend to slide sideways due to their minimal amount of lateral resistance.   Boats with ultra narrow, very deep, high profile keels like a Farr 30, Farr 40, any Melges or new C&C 30 also tend to slide sideways due to their minimal amount of lateral resistance. That being said, one can expect any of these boats to have an effective tack angle of around 30 degrees, where as your typical P365 will have an effective tack angle of around 50 to 55 degrees. 

The difference between the two completely different designs is that although the Farr & C&C 30 keels are also small in lateral area, the boats sail fast enough to artificially compress the water flowing around the keel so that the apparent viscosity of the water increases resulting in increased lift characteristics. The faster those boats go the higher they point because they slide sideways less and less. Your boat does the same thing but it just can't go fast enough to make that much difference.

The numbers you referenced to on you 45 mile trip fall right into line.  275 degrees - 160 degrees = 115 degrees divided by 2 = 57.5 degrees.  Unfortunately your furling mainsail is typically good for a 5 degree reduction in pointing ability.  So, 57.5 degrees falls right in line.  The ability of a sailboat to point in degrees are numbers similar to those like the one (fish) that got away.  We have all heard the sailor tell you their boat goes to weather like a witch. Just what does that mean anyway?  The reality of it all is the average cruiser is about 50 to 55 degrees, boats like J-22's and 24's (race boats) if well sailed with good gear are lucky to approach 45 degrees and the very best high tech $10k per foot rockets can achieve 30 degrees.  The very popular designs in cruising boats as of late, such as the Oceanis series are lucky to see 55 to 60 degrees, but boy aren't they so pretty below.   

You also mentioned that with the full 125 head sail and a reefed main you had the least weather helm.  A P365 has a ton of weather helm due to the design of the skeg and rudder.  It is without question not a balanced rudder design by any means of the imagination.  The entire rudder is behind the rudder post and loads heavily.  The farther forward the center of effort that your sail plan is compared to that of the keel, the worse the boat will point but the weather helm will reduce.  It is the leech of the main that loads the trailing edge of the keel, greatly helping the lift component. The longer you can carry your full main the better you will point.  The P367 with its cutter rig takes advantage of this fact.  As the wind pipes up, the head sail is removed and the inner smaller jib is pressed into service. Moving the head sail center of effort back helps keep the leech of the main loaded.  The cutter design offers more options.

My P365 Ketch is one of a handful that came out of the Person factory with a self tailing inner stay sail.  I carry a high cut yankee 120ish on my furler.  The high cut yankee profile allows me to see under to what's ahead and I couldn't stand grinding a 150 all the way in all of the time.  Once the windspeed nudges above 15, I roll the head sail completely away and carry the inner staysail and a full main and mizzen. If it pipes up to 20 I take two slabs out of the main and keep the full mizzen. If the bell rings 25 to 30 I can dump the mizzen or completely dump the main and keep right on trucking.  Lots of strings to pull, but lots of options.  I can also carry my head sail or main in a sail bag over my shoulder weight wise without a problem because of the split rig.

For the most part, unless you are willing to invest in a J-35 and its interior restrictions, J-44 or something like a J-124 and live with higher ownership costs and the lack of comfort in a lumpy seaway, you've got just about as good or better than any cruising boat out there.  Just be thankful you are not at the helm of a Westsail 32 or something like that.  They are great boats for crossing oceans but when weekend cruising, life is too short.  The wider the beam for a given waterline length, the worse it gets uphill. Off of the wind those designs stretch their legs nicely, but how often do we really sail at 100 to 120 degrees. 

I agree that in mast furling is wonderful for safety and convenience.  Head sail furling use to be a luxury, today it is almost a necessity for resale and certainly a safety consideration especially at the pointy end of the boat.  I am still considering a Tide system for my main but am holding off a little longer even though I know they are fantastic.

Talked to Robinhood Marine today, thanks for the tip.

Dale Tanski

[jpendoley]

Dale,
What a great and thoughtful post-thank you.  I was asking for the likely tacking angle so I could see if what I was achieving is what is considered typical for the 365. Its good to know that I am in the ball park. I do love my teeny little furling main, but I rue the flat cut and the lost roach. I have begun to investigate converting the main to an external track system and a full main, but am giving that decision some time.  One benefit of my flat cut roachless furling main is there is very, very little weather helm-which would make sense given the absent roach.  It save amps on the auto pilot and helps minimize the amount of heel.

I assume these boats want to stay on their feet as much as possible-unlike my older Vanguard which,with its long overhangs wants to go over to 15 degrees of heel to achieve a longer waterline. Again, the puny roller furled main helps in theis regard. I love that my 365 is not tender in the way the Vanguard is and I absolutely love its overall behaviour on every other point of sail.

On another subject-winter is coming-do you resell forced hot air diesel heaters?  Thinking of buying a Webasto or Espar.

[Dale Tanski]

Jim,

Yes we sell both the Webasto and the Espar.  I haven't looked at the price structure lately but the distributor for the USA for Espar units is all out of Canada.  The dollar ratio right now may be an advantage.  I own an Espar but when you take the covers off both are very similar.  The vast majorities of both of these units are installed in over the road trucks to meet the no idle laws.  The marine business is a very small portion of their business model.

There are two ways to go regardless of whose unit you favor.  The most common is the forced air unit.  This unit requires ductwork.  Ductwork in a boat the size of a P365 is not easy to do. Getting heat into the V-berth, head and main cabin is a nightmare in terms of still getting the units exhaust out of the back end of the boat.  At best you just dump warm air into the main part of the boat and hope for the best.  I went this route.  If it is very cold out the head and V-berth will remain colder than the main cabin.

The other way to go is a hydronic (water heated) system.  If I ever lived aboard I would go this route.  Basically it is a water heater that you run two small plastic tubes around the boat, supply and return.  In each place you want heat you install a small water to air fan driven heat exchanger that heats the air locally.  Each area is therefore a zone and can be individually controlled.  Running small plastic tube is far easier than 3 or 4" duct work.

If you are interested let me know and I can send you some price structure.

Dale Tanski

[Dale Tanski]

Jim,

Check out HEAT post in Non-mechanical section. I included more information there.

Dale