Number Twenty Three

[S/V Deo Volente]

I wonder if you looped a line through the two hatches and attached the main halyard you could tilt it that way. You can overlap the butyl to seal it.
Call me Bob, Deo is rather presumptious

[#23]

I wonder if you looped a line through the two hatches and attached the main halyard you could tilt it that way. You can overlap the butyl to seal it.

Thanks Bob, I reckon the halyard hoist would work - something to consider as a backup, at the very least.

Yesterday & today we removed the last of the veneer & trim below the P+S frames. That meant disconnecting speakers, GFCIs, far too many lighter-style 12v outlets and the stbd wiper motor. Some of the 7/16" nuts on the deck-underside of the forward window frame are tight to get at with a wrench, but I made a point of test-fitting the wrench on every nut, to confirm none will be a show-stopper once the project commences.

For the individual pane frames, I've decided to replace the #6 countersink screws with #8 stainless hex washer head sheet metal screws, similar to these. I don't mind the look of the hex "buttons" and the washer heads will snug things up better without needing the longer shank of a countersink.

the project parts list (still growing):

500ml etch primer
2000ml acetone
red scotchbrite pads
paint scrapers
paper towels
750ml Windex
2 x 72"-96" jack posts
60' x 3/8" butyl (main frames)
150' x 1/8" x 1/2" butyl (main frame butt joints + individual pane frames)
10 x 7/16" x 1/4"ID stainless nuts (because sure as hell I'll lose some at some point)
10 x 1/4"ID stainless washers
90 x 3/4" x #8 stainless hex washer head screws

[#23]

The USCG Certificate of Deletion arrived in the mail today. Canada requires it in order to register a foreign-bought vessel. With that, we can now move forward with legally renaming her.

The weather forecast is currently showing this Friday-Monday as a rainfree window of opportunity to remove and re-bed the frames. With that in mind, here is a SitRep on the project parts list:

500ml etch primer
1000ml acetone
brake cleaner - ready
red scotchbrite pads - ready
masking tape
paint scrapers - ready
1/4" nut driver
paper towels - ready
750ml Windex
2 x 72"-96" jack posts
12' x 12' tarp - ready
carpeting for jack post dunnage
60' x 3/8" butyl - ready
150' x 1/8" x 1/2" butyl - ready
10 x 7/16" x 1/4"ID stainless nuts
10 x 1/4"ID stainless washers - ready
90 x 3/4" x #8 stainless hex washer head screws - ready

If the forecast holds, I'll pick up the jack posts on Friday morning, as a weekend rental.

[PeteW]

Jack posts will fall over. But anytime
I need to lift something big and bulky
I wheel in my hydraulic motorcycle
Lift. Build a box out of 2x4s to get it to
The required height. And pump it up. You
Know that thing will be glued on. So plan on
Driving in lots of wedges to break the seal.

[#23]

Last Friday I set Plan A into motion, removing all of the upper frame bolts and using the jack posts to lift the roof. Despite having cleaned out and removed all the accessible original sealant between the frames/roof joint, and with the application of wedges (thanks Pete), it quickly became apparent that the lifting force required to break the old seal would also be strong enough to crack the roof itself. So I jumped to Plan B: an old-fashioned scraping out of all of the sealant between the frame/aft bulkhead;frame; deck; and frame/frame and then pumping Life-Calk in from the outside. So I demounted the jack posts and hit up the marine supply store for the sealant, as well as a second scraping tool.

Saturday morning's forecast still called for sunny skies, so I was at the ship before first light, to begin peeling out the old silicone...and by peeling, I mean laboriously scraping it out an inch at a time, all while cursing whoever thought silicone + boats = good idea. I had left all but a few of the frame retention bolts out (and the few I left, I left loose), because I wanted to maximize the available seam gap both for cleaning and for pumping in the Life-Calk. 

As soon as all of the seals were removed, I cleaned out all of the accumulated grit, moss & dirt. The amount of debris that had worked its way into the seams over the years - especially between the roof and the frames - was eye-opening. All the more reason why lifting the roof & removing the frames would have been the better way to go.

Finally, with the seams all cleaned out, it was time to tape and then caulk:


(the green tarp ready, in case it rained during the job)

I had the Life-Calk tubes warming in front of a space heater while doing the cleaning & taping, so it flowed nicely despite the cool outside temperatures. I managed to get a continuous flow all the way around the upper & lower frame seams, completing the lower seam first (working it in with fingers and a putty knife once the bead was laid) and then using a new Life-Calk tube for the upper seam.

By the time I had the upper & lower seams completed the sun was setting, so I wrapped up for the evening and tarped the p/h. Then I went home and ate a few ibuprofen for my aching finger bones.

Sunday morning I was back out at first light. According to the BoatLife blurb, Life-Calk works best when applied to a loose seam that is then left loose while the Calk sets up. Job #1 on Sunday was putting the 60+ window frame bolts back in, with new washers backing all the nuts. That killed time until my space heater had warmed things up a little, after which I tackled the aft bulkhead/frame seams. Those seams had some unique challenges but after a few hours, I managed to get them buttoned up.

With all the sealant now done I finger-tightened the roof & deck seams, which had been setting for close to 24 hours. Even the finger-tightened had some sealant squirting out on the lower forward frame. I decided to leave well enough alone and began cleaning the post-project incredibly filthy deck.

By 1630 I was wrapping up and the forecast called for rain overnight, so I laid towels under all my usual suspect areas and left the Life-Calked seams exposed to the rain for the first time. The goop needs humidity to set and if there's one thing the PNW has a lot of in the Fall, it's wet air. 

Monday morning I got the ship around 1000 and found all of my usual main frame drip locations bone dry.




I tightened all of the frame bolts a little more (barely wrench-snug) and a little more Life-Calk squirted out. The final tightening will happen after it has set up for a week or so. A couple of the individual frames still have drips, but that will be another project. 


.

[S/V Deo Volente]

I've been a big fan of Life Caulk. I hope you pulled the tape before the caulk dried. Silicone was the new wonder when these boats were built. I bet they thought with that nice rubber gasket it should be good for life!
I assume by individual frames you mean the windows? Do you know if they have been changed or not?
Bob

[#23]

Hi Bob,

I've been a big fan of Life Caulk. I hope you pulled the tape before the caulk dried

Yep - and went through another 10 nitrile gloves in the process

I assume by individual frames you mean the windows? Do you know if they have been changed or not?

Yes, I mean the windows themselves (and their individual backing frames).

Going by the variety of sealant on each pane, I'm thinking that at least some have been changed. When I re-did the forward helm window pane seal, I found that the old one consisted of nothing but a length of cheap foam weatherstripping. I'm pretty sure it didn't come from the factory like that, but after finding those copper drip trays, I'm not ruling it out 

Some of the panes have a thick bead of some sort of whitish sealant. I tried prying one apart and it wouldn't budge, so I don't think it's the same bathroom silicone I've been finding elsewhere. Others have  butyl and there's at least one with a mossy rubber gasket. Mossy Gasket Window is where I'm still getting one of the drips, so that's straightforward.

~ Chris

[Della and Dave]

I don't know if you are familiar with 3M 5200, but it's white and a royal pain to get loose. It is called an adhesive sealant, because it is NOT recommended for use anyplace when you might need to take it apart in the future. It is more like a glue Han a sealant.  There is, however, a solvent that they sell at the marine stores that works. 

[Dale Tanski]

One of the more common mini seminars that I give to customers on a regular basis is caulk and sealant compounds.  Way to many walk in looking for 3M 5200.  5200 is an excellent product when as Dave said, you NEVER want to take it apart or remove the item.  An excellent application for 5200 would be the hull to deck joint. The product that Dave mentioned that breaks down 5200 is known as Kryptonite.  It breaks down the material about 1/4" at an application and costs about $15/oz.

A good alternative for 5200 is 4200 or 4000.  4000 series 3M is considered semi permanent, but it is still tougher than you can imagine to get apart.  4200 is the same as 4000 but it has UV inhibitors which makes it good for exposure to sun.

Both 3M products will set up underwater. One additional downside is once you open the container no matter how well you try and reseal it the left overs will set up in a matter of days so buy accordingly.

Boatlife makes Lifecaulk.  Lifecaulk is a polysulfide that can be used above and below the waterline. It remains flexible and can be painted.  Lifecaulk is excellent for caulking seams in teak decks as it can be sanded.  It cures underwater and will stick to wet surfaces.

Boatlife also makes Lifeseal.  Lifeseal is a blend of polyurethane and marine silicone. It tools easily, not too sticky not to gooey, and it comes off of your fingers with a paper towel unlike pure silicone. It is an excellent sealant that works perfectly for sealing windows and bedding deck fittings. Unlike 5200, it will not remove the gelcoat it is stuck to.  It also can be used above and below the waterline.  When in doubt, this is the go to product. 

Boatlife also makes a marine grade silicone.  There is a huge difference between 3M's Tub & Tile or Kitchen grade silicone and marine grade silicone and that is UV protection.  Silicone gets a bad name from its indoor cousin but for marine use, it must contain UV inhibitors or in a few short years it will turn orange, loose its flexibility and fall out.  Silicone is difficult to apply, seems impossible to get off of your hands but has many applications all around the boat.  It is a great sealant but only a fair adhesive. 

As a rule of thumb, marine products such as waxes, paints, varnish, sealants and caulks all cost more that big box store products for good reason, UV inhibitors. The sun reflects off of the waters surface and sun damage is far higher on a boat.  UV inhibitors are like sunscreen and cost accordingly.  Like most items, you get what you pay for.

Dale Tanski
Obersheimer Sailor Supply

[INCOMMUNICADO]

Dale ,Thanks for the good information on caulks and sealants. Here is something a friend at Yacht Works told me to try when I have leftover 5200 seal it and put it in the freezer. I tried it and it works. I hope this helps. Allen

[#23]

I don't know if you are familiar with 3M 5200, but it's white and a royal pain to get loose. It is called an adhesive sealant, because it is NOT recommended for use anyplace when you might need to take it apart in the future. It is more like a glue Han a sealant.  There is, however, a solvent that they sell at the marine stores that works.

thanks - it sounds like the perfect product not to use on removable windows, so that's likely what is in there   

One of the more common mini seminars that I give to customers on a regular basis is caulk and sealant compounds.  Way to many walk in looking for 3M 5200.  5200 is an excellent product when as Dave said, you NEVER want to take it apart or remove the item.  An excellent application for 5200 would be the hull to deck joint. The product that Dave mentioned that breaks down 5200 is known as Kryptonite.  It breaks down the material about 1/4" at an application and costs about $15/oz.

...

As a rule of thumb, marine products such as waxes, paints, varnish, sealants and caulks all cost more that big box store products for good reason, UV inhibitors. The sun reflects off of the waters surface and sun damage is far higher on a boat.  UV inhibitors are like sunscreen and cost accordingly.  Like most items, you get what you pay for.

excellent advice, Dale - thanks so much for sharing it here!

***

After week in WA, I've been pulling 12-hour days at my real job: inspecting and maintaining highway bridges:



The Sunday/Monday forecast is calling for semi-sunshine, so this may be my opportunity to replace those last leaky window seals. The next small project after that will be epoxying a couple of drippy screw holes in the coachroof.

[PeteW]

I have found that 5200 is a not good as a calk. The reason being is that it takes too long to set and by then is has run all over and creates a mess. The places I use 5200 include, any thru-hull fitting, anything below the water line, deck fittings that I don't want to leak and lexan or polycarb hatch lights. All my hatch lights were popped out from pushing on the inside. 5200 seems to have solved that problem once and for all. Most importantly you have to sand the sealing edge of the lexan to rough it up. Otherwise nothing will stick to it.

Wet 5200 will clean up with acetone or expoxy paint reducer which contains methyl ethyl keytones (MEK). But never get near varnished brightwork with that stuff. It will orange peel.

Personally I can't think of anything on my boat that I have glued down that I ever plan on removing in the next 30 years or at least while I'm the current owner.   Pete

[#23]

Personally I can't think of anything on my boat that I have glued down that I ever plan on removing in the next 30 years or at least while I'm the current owner

*thumb's up*
I think therein lies the challenge for many boat owners: forecasting far enough into the future to make that sort of informed choice.

We managed to get one of the side windows pulled and re-sealed with butyl today - a heat gun made all the difference in the cool temps because the butyl was pretty darn stiff without it. In other news, I mapped out the current AC electrical system and pulled out roughly 40' of dead DIY wiring. I reckon there's at least a half-mile of aborted old wiring in the bilge...maybe I can sell enough of it to buy a new AC distribution panel     

[#23]

Our new window seal is watertight!




We've pulled out more dead DIY wiring, with roughly a dozen lines left to pull. The PO of the PO (2PO?) fancied himself an electronic whiz and spliced telephone wires into all of the gauges, leading them to connectors for his laptop. Then there's the old DIY solar panel wiring system that was snipped at both ends. He also mounted 12v plugs (most of which have long since corroded) into most of the teak bulkheads. My goal is to map out the DC system but there's no point in doing that until we get rid of the dreck.

I'm a big fan of simple, independent systems, especially when it comes to electrics.

[#23]

Having now come through a couple of intense rainstorms without a window leak, I spent Sunday putting the teak window trims back up on the fwd frames, as well as running an overhead 12v ventilation fan that can be rotated to either keep the helm window defogged, or be used to push galley steam out the back companionway.



We are looking at headliner options, and have been giving serious consideration to 1/8" thick HDPE puckboard, which can be sourced in the 10' long sheets needed to run the length of the pilothouse roof. In addition to being mould & water resistant, the 1/8" thickness would offer enough rigidity to allow for overhead recessed LED lights to be mounted.

Between the puckboard and the underside of the pilothouse deck, we'd mount 1/2" thick sheets of reflective-coated polyisocyanurate insulation (the polyiso is also mould & water resistant). The current blocking on the ceiling is 1/2" plywood, so having polyiso of the same thickness should fill in the gaps nicely. We'd mount the polyiso with velcro tabs, rather than gluing it down...I always want to preserve access to the layup.