Auto Pilots??

[Firefly]

Thanks guys this helps a lot. I've been looking to upgrade my AP for a while with much confusion. I haven't been on the forum for awhile (shame on me) but should have started my research here.

Stew

[Della and Dave]

Pete: Thanks for the info.  Both sites are pretty usefull. I couldn't follow everything, but it helped me with some of the basics.  We have old Raytheon gear with some issues (missing data card and no GPS signal) and after reading on those links, I think I understand what is going on a little.  I think I know what I need to do to get our chart plotter going again, if we decide to use it instead of replacing it or just using the iPad.  Those sites helped to understand what our manuals were saying.  Our radar and chart plotter are Ratheon (now Raymarine) NMEA 0183, and the new stuff is Raymarine's Seatalk.  I think the GPS may need replacing, but the only ones for sale these days are NMEA 2000 or Seatalk.  From that site, I am beginning to understand the difference between Seatalk and NMEA 2000, but not completely by any means.  I guess there is an adaptor available.  We also need a new map card.  In total, it brings the total up to pretty close to buying a new modern chart plotter, but I don't quite understand if it would talk to our old radar.  I might be able to fix the GPS, but it is pre WAAS, so not as accurate a position fix as is possible today. 

I never used it a lot, but going through school, I did have a couple of controls classes, mainly flight controls.  Same principles, but more aero stuff.  I used it a bit in the labs puting together servo-hydraulic load frames to test stuff.  That was closed loop feedback control stuff, but mostly I was putting together pieces others had designed and built.  It was fun when it worked, frustrating when I couldn't figure out why it wasn't. 

[PeteW]

Stew,

One of the better configurations you might consider would be to buy a newer Raymarine ST70  control head. (around $450). This puts your money where you can see it. This head is compatible with the legacy DX-10 or DX-30 Course computers. I believe this is newer than the S1G and S2G computer which are not compatible wit the ST70 Control Head.

An option for the linear drive that I'm looking into is the Octopus 1212LAM12 Electric Hydraulic Linear Drive. Its falls in between the type 1 and type 2 Raymarine screw type linear drives at around 880 lbs of thrust and has adjustable flow rate. ( type 1 is 650 lbs) Current draw is 4-6 amps so a DX-30 may be the right course computer for the Octopus. The DX-10 can drive 1.5 to 3 amp drives and the DX-30 4-6 amps. But actual current on the Octopus should be low when steering the Pearson 365. Their claim is that it draws half the current of mechanical drives.

Pete

[Firefly]

Thanks Pete,
I'll look up all of these...thanks again.
Stew

[PeteW]

Garner mentioned the need for a remote. I could not agree more with that. Conceivably when you fall overboard single handing you can disengage the autopilot and head the boat up.

The Raymarine S100 Remote looks like it will work with any of the legacy Raymarine Autopilot systems. There is a Sea Talk base station radio that plugs into the Sea talk buss. Their literature does not mention this little detail. They must assume we all think it works by magic.

But these English dudes have some cool technology.
http://www.madmanmarine.com/

They have key fob wireless  remote system pretty cheap. But the Sea talk to Wi-Fi bridge lets you steer the boat from an IPhone App. Personally I'd rather see some Android or Windows Apps for tablets.


Pete

[Firefly]

Pete it's all your fault that I've spent the last 24hrs surfing autopilot stuff!

Yes, I also agree with you and Garner about the remote. Also thanks again for the dodger Garner, we are still using it 
( http://www.sailblogs.com/member/firefly25/index.php?show=gallery&aid=27235&pid=571407 )

I really like the looks of that Octopus drive. Also after researching controllers and control heads, I have a new idea that perhaps you could toss your opinion at.

I currently have a Raymarine XPS-5 wheelpilot installed that suffers from all the problems everyone always mentions. After some research I found a couple articles about converting the spx-5 to a below deck hydraulic drive or electric linear drive. It seems that there are a couple differences beween the spx-5 controller and the dx-10 that you mentioned. The primary problem for operating a linear drive is a the lack of a 'clutch' output from the spx-5 controller. That can apparently be overcome by adding a manual engage switch which that may or maynot require feeding a relay or MOSFET to control the clutch solenoid on the linear drive. The other main issue that you have already mentioned, is current draw depending on the type of drive used. The articles also talk about using relays or MOSFETs to solve this as well. Apparently adding the rudder position indicator helps a lot as well.

Here are the articles that I'm referring to:
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f13/cockpit-pilot-spx-5-and-hydraulic-pump-possible-75897.html
http://albin25.eu/our-a25ak-dido/35-modifications/78-changing-the-wheel-pilot-into-a-qhydro-pilotq

I still have a least a couple months to come up with a plan since Diana and I are currently in New Zealand visiting our daughter (and going broke). The boat will be on the hard in Puerto Rico til we arrive the 1st of April.

Anyway, If this could work I could save about $1000 on the conversion. Thoughts?

[PeteW]

Stew,

Thanks for those interesting links. It's something I have been wondering about as well. I looked into it and I was able to find out more than I suspect Raymarine would want out in the public domain.

Raymarine provides different models of Smartpilot computers that are designed to work with various capacity drive systems that require low, medium and higher motor drive currents. I'm talking about the SPX-5, 10 and 30. As you also discovered, the MosFET in the H bridge is rated at 64 amps, so it can conceivably run a heavier load. It would seem that the only difference between these models is the size fuse they install.

However there is a 3rd parameter that is different in all three models an that is the current limit  set point. This is a critical circuit that prevents the motor in your drive from burning up if the load on the rudder becomes excessive. Raymarine could have easily designed one version of Smart pilot with jumper selects for the motor type but I suspect they didn't for 2 reasons:

1. They can make more money selling you what you think is a more powerful course computer. Its not. They are all equally powerful using the same ARM-7 96MHZ RISC processor and firmware algorithms.

2. If they made it a user adjustment, they could not limit their liability on burned out drive units that were subjected to overcurrent by improper jumper selection.

So if you hang a larger drive on the SPx-5 it will run very well most of the time. And probably better than the wheel tiller up to a point. When the motor current hits the threshold for the SPX-5 set point your motor will simply turn off and stop. The electric hydraulic units seem to be more efficient than the screw drive type. So this would extend the usable range of load conditions without current limiting. Other than that, engaging the clutch with a manual switch would be no more trouble than the manual engagement on the wheel tiller.

But bypassing the current limit sense by using external reversing relays would create a fire hazard. It is conceivable to me that without this safety circuit you could set a drive motor on fire at the worst time ( bad conditions at sea) . That being said there looks like there is a way to trick a SPX-5 into thinking its and SPX-10 or an SPX-30 and change the current limit set points. I never tried it so I don't know if its as simple as it seems and I would prefer not to disclose or recommend something that was not approved by Raymarine especially on a public forum.

As I eluded to above, the firmware for all three models course computer is identical. But  I suspect they all run slightly different code that gets initialized at run time. If you get my drift.

Good luck with your AP project. With a little ingenuity I think we can repurpose some older components and save a fair amount of money in the process.

Pete

[Firefly]

Great stuff Pete!

I too am concerned about the fire/overheat problem. We had mechanical actuators on a couple of the helicopters that I used to fly, and they were the number one failure components (always do to overheating). Best case would damage the drive and worst case would start a fire in a very difficult location. Pretty sure that I know what your alluding to regarding the controller, as it was mentioned in one of the articles, in that when you look at the SPX-5 configuration it is one of the items that does not allow editing.

I'm wondering if I could also solve the 'current limiting' problem by adding a 'hold' relay in the clutch circuit. An over current situation would open the 'hold' relay to disengage the drive. The controller would however still be feeding 'drive' inputs to the acuator. I'm not sure how that would affect the drive (i.e. when the clutch is reengaged)? An ammeter in the drive unit supply might work as a monitoring solution as well.

Fun project anyway and if it works, I can upgrade my system in two stages (which fits my budget much better).

Stew

[Firefly]

Just noticed this link that Garner put up a while back. It's a great link to his autopilot install:

http://www.sailingseadragon.com/AutoPilot.htm

[PeteW]

Garners system is now a few years old  and uses the S1G.  I did manage to locate a service manual for that version of smart pilot. This particular design has long been out of production because the NEC 70F39 32 bit uProcessor went obsolete about 10 years ago. This NEC microprocessor used a masked ROM meaning that no firmware upgrades were ever a possibility. Since then the technology has improved significantly. The SPX-5 ,10 and 30 have flash memory that has undergone several firmware upgrades. The part can be "flashed" with new improved code in the field. For this reason I am not considering the S1G Smart Pilot to be worth what they seem to be selling for. You are better off looking for a  SPX-10

But I did determine that the motor drive circuitry found in the S1G was "lifted" and pasted verbatim  into the SPX-5, 10 design. This supports my belief that the drive circuitry in the SPX-10 is identical and the current limiting set point is the only difference. That set point is set in software. The software knows what model SPX board it is from a resistor value that gets put in during factory configuration. Also there is current limiting on the clutch drive circuitry that is part of the SPX10 and 30 but not the 5 like you have.

Pete

[PeteW]

I scored this autopilot hydraulic pump on Ebay for little or no money. Obviously its a type 1 or 2 Octopus pump. Octopus pumps have an adjustable flow rate (no fixed orifice like the other brands). It can be set from 600 cc to 1.8 liters/minute by loosening 2 screws and twisting the pump housing. This changes the stroke on the piston pump. A brilliant design.



But the biggest surprise was what I found in the back end of the pump motor. It would appear that the H-bridge for changing direction, the current limiting and fusing is built into a controller as part of the pump.  Sweet !



Can anyone ID what make of autopilot this came out of? Does not appear to be Raymarine or Simrad. Its nothing that appears in the Octopus catalog either. But they seem to have built it for someone.

Stew, this would solve your problem with running a heavier below deck autopilot drive that could interface to your X-5 controller.

Pete

[Firefly]

That's brilliant Pete! I too have been thinking about going hydraulic vs electro-mechanical...also have been keeping my eye on eBay  .  Just 5 weeks and I'll be back on the boat to verify exactly what I have to work with.

[P69]

I haven't used it much, but what do ya'll think of a W-H auto pilot (out of Washinton)? 
It was on the boat when I bought it and seems to do a good job.

Don't know much about it. There is a hydraulic pump under galley sink, some cylindrical thing  in cabinet on centerline in galley (fluxgate compass?), something aft on the stbd side referred to as a RAT, that looks like a little arm coming from a box wired to the main computer box, attached to the steering quadrant, and a much larger hydraulic arm on the port side attached to the steering quadrant.  The control box in in the companion way, swings out into cockpit. The engage/disengage lever is in the port cockpit coaming. it's a plunger  that pulls out to engage, push in to disengage.

It's pretty easy to use, set the course on its display, adjust two yaw  and rudder gain, pull plunger out and it takes over

http://whautopilots.com/

[Firefly]

Never heard of it. Checked out the website...looks pretty cool.

[PeteW]

Looks to be a high quality Autopilot system. They put their money into a rock solid hydraulic drive system. The manual hydraulic bypass valve makes good sense. Although you could upgrade that part of the system to electric solenoid.  If you ever upgrade I would leave the hydraulics and the 1/4 HP  power pack in place. You are never going to get anything better than that from Raymarine.

Any Idea of how much current it draws?  The RAT is the Rudder Angle Transducer.

Pete