Walter V-Drive Dead or Dying

[stwagstaff]

My old Walter V-Drive (Pearson 365, hull number eight)  looks about as sorry as a piece of machinery can. Corroded, paint in patches, oil the color of hershey's milk chocolate, but not half as sweet, height adjusting bolt shoulder rusted/sheared away, drive shaft rusty and at least slightly grooved at the seals, beloved brass ID plate  torn away with only a tiny shard still held in place by a single lonely rivet. The poor thing sprays oil all over the underbelly of the sole and into the bilge every time I let the prop run.  I was contemplating a Life Flight to Walter and  rebuild, but having extracted her oxidized, rattling hulk from the boat and taken a proper look in the harsh light of day,  I think it would be unkind to prolong the suffering. Extraction, by the way, was almost as easy as merely lifting up on the unit - the mounting brackets were rusted through and literally crumble between my fingers. Good thing I didn't try to go anywhere. Time to put a bullet in her, I think, and put us both out of our misery.

Enough with the moral dilemma of euthanasia. The question is now, what's my best option for replacement?

The boat's Westerbeke runs strong and still has some years in her, I hope, so I don't want to factor too strongly a possible re-power in my decision. That said, $2,200 or so for a brand-new drive is a lot to spend, when there's a haulout, paint upper and lower,  and new standing rigging already on the calendar.

I have located a couple of different RV10D drives that look to be in good shape -at 1/3 the price of new -  but these are the "standard" version, which have the heat exchanger on the bottom, not the "Pearson Special" edition that we all know and ruefully love. That said, they are also set up for bolting directly to a transmission, rather than using our over-priced double-jacketed drive shaft. (My tubular shaft, pardon the expression,  seems OK - it's only the machined rod that fits into the drive that's a goner.)  Has anybody jury rigged one of these "non-special" RV10D's, or any other drive,  to fit their Pearson?

Any other thoughts or advice?

Thank you.

[SV Alfresco]

The "chocolate" oil is oil that is full of water. Only two ways it can get like that: 1) the V-drive was submerged, 2) leak in the water cooler seals or pipe. If you have been running it like this for a while, your bearings are probably shot. Walter Machine Company is still in business (www.waltergear.com/) and they do rebuilds. That might be your best option.

Mike

[INCOMMUNICADO]

I agree with Mike if you can't rebuild it yourself send it to Walter.Then you will have another 35 to 50 years of good service. Allen

[PeteW]

I would not send it to Walter Machine. Yes  they will rebuild it but it will cost more than a new one. The RV-10 is now obsolete. God help you if you need a new shaft or gear. The input double U joint alone will set you back $400. They make you buy the entire assembly.

Keep a look out for one on Ebay or Craigs list. I've bought a cherry RV-10 with very rare 1:1 gears for $60 and used it for parts. And I still have good condition spare parts left over.

You can also buy all the bearings new on line for 1/2 of what Walter charges. The only thing I would buy from Walter Machine is the gasket set and the seals. I found them extremely difficult to work with.

You need to pull your RV-10. Disassemble it and see exactly what's worn out. The week link is splines on the double U joint yokes. They get sloppy.

Pete

[PeteW]

I'm pretty sure the Pearson RV-10 is nothing special. Looks to me like all they did was interchange the top and bottom cover plates which relocated the cooler to the top. They plugged the dip stick hole which is now on the bottom and fitted one to the main housing with a pipe thread elbow. Your 15 degree angle housing will bolt to the main housing of a direct mount versions.  if you have found an RV-10 make sure its 2:1 gearing otherwise you will be swapping gears from your old unit. I presume you want to buy a used drive that does not need to be rebuilt.

Have you thought of  cleaning up you old RV-10, and simply replacing the input seal and o rings. They are pressed into the cap that  is held on by 4 bolts.  You can do this job with the V-drive in the boat. Remove the top and bottom housing cover and flush it out. Wire brush the thing and put some paint on it.

Like I said all you will need from Walter is a gasket set $15, and the seals and O rings.

My mounting brackets rusted out. Walter wants $140 for 2 . I nixed that and bought 2 precut pieces of angle iron for $4. I had to saw them down the ears, and drill the slots. A little bit of work if you don't have a milling machine. But it all worked out fine.

[PeteW]

I was wrong about the direct drive RV-10 . The RV-10D as its known is a completely different casting from the RV-10. The RV 10 does however allow the cooler to mount either top or bottom.

FYI here are some bearing numbers  for the RV-10:
1 each    Timken 17118 Roller, 17244 Race
2 each    Timken 07097 Roller 07204 Race
1 each    Nachi 5304    Double Roller   (output shaft)
1 each   NTN  1206  Self Aligning   (input bearing)

If you end up rebuilding your rusty RV-10 the most difficult task will be re-studding the casting. The studs and what's left of the nuts are both iron. You will need to heat the block with a torch to get them out. Red Loctite the new one's in. I got new one's that came close to original from McMaster Carr. Make sure they don't protrude on the inside.

Pete

[SVJourney]

Pete,
Awesome info on the bearing PN's.  I wil be overhauling our RV-10 next month as it has a LOT of lash between input and output shafts.  With those PN's I can get the bearings from Florida bearing and supply in Ft Lauderdale, or prolly any bearing supply house.
Hopefully, the lash isn't the gears, the box does not growl, so I hope to reuse them.
I plan to cut my own paper gaskets.

I guess my grail will be to find a way to rebuild or replace the universal joints inside the gear box.  Any tips besides spending $400 from Walter?

[SVJourney]

Also will need input and output seals. 

[stwagstaff]

Thank you. As usual, this site is a wealth of indispensable help and I appreciate all the good feedback.

I'm going to open up the drive and take a close hard look to see if this thing is worth salvaging. Seems doubtful.

The cast housing of the drive has two vertical adjustment bolts through tapped shoulder flanges on the main housing, above the studs. One of these flanges is broken/corroded off. Walter says I'll need to purchase a new main housing to replace it ($385, plus studs and other hardware"), so I figure about $400 for that part alone. I have no idea if it's even possible to weld a new flange in place. But the total cost, considering the obvious need for seals, bearings, and the probability of other wear and tear as yet undiscovered, seems likely to put this whole thing at close enough to the price of a brand new drive ($2277), that buying a new one is where I'm leaning, as much as I'd rather not spend that money.

Unfortunately, I'm finding a fair number of Walter RV10D drives on the ebay/craigslist market, but neither hide nor hair of "pearson special" version. As pointed out by PeteW, the direct-drive RV10, is  not like the Pearson Special model. Neither is the RV10D. The latter has a continuous rounded top and there is no opening on top to accommodate the heat exchanger . The side-mounted cooling ports of the standard RV10D clearly will poke directly into the sides of the bilge and there's no way elbows could fit. Given the design and the shape it's meant to fit into, it is easy to understand why Walter had to create a Pearson Special edition to work in this boat. In theory, Walter could have created a heat exchanger with the hose ports in front, rather than at the sides, which might have solved the fit problem, but they opted to move the cooler to the top of the housing, instead. This design gives us  easier access, and gives the hoses better clearance, but it means we are married to a very hard to find and expensive spare part. Since nobody else used them, they are non-existent on the aftermarket.

[PeteW]

Just to clarify. The RV-10 in the Pearson is identical to every RV-10 ever made with the exception of the location of the dipstick. Any 2:1 RV-10 you can find can be fitted into the Pearson  by swapping out the bottom cover (that does not have a dipstick hole drilled in it) and a pipe fitting off your old V drive.

I would be careful cutting my own gaskets. Thickness matters because the gaskets as act as shims in the stack-up that determines loading on the 2 tapered bearing (14, 14A) on the pinion shaft (top shaft). Too thin and the bearing will bind when you tighten the cap nuts #3. Something important to be aware of during assembly.

Backlash in my v drive was a result of worn splines on the pinion shaft where it plugs into the double cardan. (#9A, #34). This is the Achilles heel. These 2 parts will cost you $650. It was not gears or bearings.

I'm a buyer of worn out RV-10s if anyone wants to sell. If I can find a set of 2:1 gears I can build a complete spare V-drive for the Pearson.  Does Walter offer a core refund? You know they sell used parts for list price. So I'd be sure to ask if your getting refurbished or new with them.

Pete

[stwagstaff]

After partially disassembling my RV10  I have found the following issues. Perhaps you all can advise me on next steps:

There was water in the drive, but not a lot. And I don't know if the rusty mud colored stuff that came out was leftover from before the last time I drained and replaced the oil. I did not flush the drive thoroughly - didn't know better but should have.

The bearings show some light rust, though the inside of the unit actually looks pretty clean. The gears are clean.

Where the machined drive shaft  (the comes out of the double-walled shaft) plugs in through the front seal into the matching toothed socket, which, I assume, must is attached to to the internal Universal joint, the socket definitely shows some significant surface rust and the shaft itself is pitted significantly. Too much so to be healthy mate to a new seal.  My theory is the shaft rusted because of water dripping on it (from where? - I'm putting money on a leaky icebox, which partly overhangs this area - the drain hose comes down quite near the vdrive). The combination of rust and time wore out the front seal, and the chinese water torture eventually worked its way past the seal, into the precious geared socket, and then, throughout the drive. This would explain why the front socket and drive shaft are the rustiest spots on the drive, and also why the previous owner took the the trouble to cut the floor out from under the icebox, but never finished the job of repairing it. This may have been around the time I bought the boat.

I pressure tested the Vdrive heat exchager - hooked up a water hose to one end and plugged the other - and never a drop escaped the circuit. I don't believe it got in from there. The boat is in nearly pristine condition below decks, and the combing, cabinetry and engine show no sign of water invasion, so I'm certain she was never submerged to the depth of the Vdrive.

So, from what I've learned here:
Shaft and double cardan (Pete)  - $650
New housing and bolts (Walter Marine) - $400
Rebuild kit $330 - (skier842)
Misc bearings ($$$)
Rebuild labor ($600 ?)

It looks like I'm in for at least $1,500, plus labor - I figure about the price of a new one and then some when all is done.

Walter is resistant to selling me anything without a serial number, but I really don't want to ship my old drive just for the sake of ID, just to pay to ship it back to hang onto spare parts. Does anybody know if Walter will discount anything for the core if I trade it in? If not I'd just assume skip that step and order a new drive.

Anyone have a serial number for a their own drive that will be a good match?

I have confirmed that the drive has a 2:1 ratio, BTW.

Thanks,
Sean

[SVJourney]

Just got my box apart and ordered parts from Walter.

The 9A shaft was the cause of the backlash and was the only visible wear I could find in the box.  The box is built like a tank!  The bearings showed no wear at all and while I am going to replace them, I wouldn't hesitate to reuse them.   Based on what I saw inside, even with all the backlash I had, I would have been confident to run it for another 1000 hours without repair.  Since I have it out and apart anyways, I will overhaul it.

I had to take the 11A-N nut off with a chisel, which totally destroyed it, fortunately the $331 overhaul kit from Walter includes it.  Does anyone have any ideas on how to torque that nut back on to 150 ft lbs?  Know a source for the correct socket?  Walter couldn't give me any help there.  They were fantastic otherwise, great customer service.

BTW Sean, the bearings come with the $330 overhaul kit.  Comes with bearings, seals, gaskets, nuts and washers.  Walter said that even though Timken puts the part numbers on the races, that the performance codes are not.  The bearings you will get from a bearing supply company will not be the same quality (according to them)

[SVJourney]

Sean, the serial number in our 1977 365 is 31623

[PeteW]

Like I was saying in some other post, the 9A pinion shaft is the Achilles heel of the RV-10. It may indeed be the only visible sign of wear. But you will probably find an equal amount of wear in the mating spline of the part 34 double Cardin yoke assembly.

I don't really consider it wear. Wear come from parts sliding together. These parts get loose because they have been hammered with tourque. A bad damper plate will cause this failure mechanism to accelerate.

I have been searching for a replacement yoke from Spicer. 1" 10T splined hole is rare. Its too small to be automotive. It most likely a tractor part. And Walter will not sell you just that part. I suspect they grind the OD from some standard part.

There are products out there designed to repair worn splines.  (see my post on Loctite 660)

Pete