New to Pearson - survey advice

[Della and Dave]

We just had our offer accepted on Polaris, a 1979 Pearson 365 ketch. We are planning to do the survey next weekend, and could use a little advice on what to look for. The previous survey I. 2010 noted some widespread osmotic blistering that wasn't repaired according to the current owner. Also, the surveyor said if the standing rigging is original, it should be replaced soon. Is there any way to tell how old the rigging is other than condition? We also found a lot if oil in the bilge, which was likely spilled from a knocked over oil can. Just in case, are there any common areas that leak oil tat we should e sure to check?

Love the forum; it helped us decide to take the plunge on Polaris.  Since our last boat was a Thistle, we are definitely going to be picking your brains as we get used to this new level of boat ownership!

Della & Dave

[Randy]

Della & Dave,

Of the top of my head:

1. I would not "assume" the oil in the bilge came from a spill! That assumption could bite you. I would investigate further. Perkins 4-107/108 are notorious for leaking oil/

2. mast corrosion at keel. Common problem. Not that big a deal.

3. deck drain hose condition. A pain to replace.

4. blisters. we have all been there. blisters dont sink boats. mostly cosmetic unless they are big. if size of a dime or so, dont sweat it.

5. chain plates. pull the fiberglass cover in the quarter berth and see if you see any rust running down the plate. if so, investigate further on all plates.

That's all that comes to mind right now. I am sure the "crew" will weigh in with some more suggestions. These old boats are solid. It may take some time and treasure to get her right, but worth the investment.

Welsome aboard. Randy

[Dale Tanski]

Della & Dave,
Congratulations on the almost purchase.  From a Thistle to a 365... oh my! First off you will love the comfort and stability of the Pearson vrs the Thistle, and if you don't want to pack up and head home after sailing, you can just stay in your home away from home. 

As for telling the age of standing rigging good luck on that.  I wouldn't wholesale replace what you have unless you want piece of mind.  A good rigger should be able to do an inspection and show you what is bad and why.  When in doubt replace the cap shrouds and forestay as everything else is semi non spar threatening.

As for what to look for...
Rot in the main mast base - original made of plain carbon steel
Corrosion of base of mast - very common to cut and replace the bottom 6"
Chainplates - corrosion in section that passes through the deck
Fuel tank - early tanks steel, latter aluminum although both develop pin holes in bottom
Loose/broken baffles in water tanks - fiberglass tanks, baffles are cold secondary bonded
Deck scupper hoses - hoses and clamps from 4 deck scuppers rot and are out of site out of mind
Propeller shaft strut - known to corrode away, still available new
Propeller shaft - bent during lifting with travel lift during haul out, common problem on a 365
Damage to keel sump - damage at aft section of sump from grounding

Other than that it is a boat in a harsh environment, typically not maintained as well as it should be just like any other boat.  The fact that she is 34 years old in my mind is a good thing.  They really don't make them like that any more.  Solid hull, mast like a tree trunk, comfortable motion off shore. What you don't see on a 365 like you do on other boats is broken tabbing to bulkheads, rot in the floor, hull to deck joint issues, oil canning in hull sections, keel joint and keel bolt issues (encapsulated ballast), gel coat problems, wobbly lifeline stanchions, shoddy electrical, poor ergonomic design, poor sailing characteristics and on and on. 

At the worst the boat will need upgrading if little has been done to this point.  The good news is that you are working with a reasonably priced, proven platform that has stood the test of time. A 365 will take you anywhere on the planet with sufficient water, (another great point the shallow draft) safely and in reasonable comfort. If you have the skill, the boat will not let you down.

Good Sailing
Dale Tanski

[Della and Dave]

Wow, thanks for the data dump! We will print it out to take with us so we don't forget anything.  We have one more dilemma. Polaris is currently on the hard, which makes inspection of the hull nice and easy. The weather is not conducive to a real sea trial, however, despite our unseasonal warm and not snowy weather here in Southcentral Alaska. So we are wondering if we can adequately assess the function of the engine and the systems on the hard, or should we pay to put her in the water to do this?  It's $500 to launch and then haul back out. Any strong opinions on this?

Della & Dave

[Dale Tanski]

D & D,

I wouldn't bother spending the $500 for a launch this time of year, that is what escrows are for.  To really properly determine the operation and capabilities of the engine and drivetrain they must be tested under load.  This of course would mean floating her but more importantly running her hard to determine if she will overheat, smoke excessively, operating temperature of the transmission and the V-drive and their proper function.  I am guessing that the temperature of the water up there currently will mask any temperature issues. Fixing most temperature issues are small dollar repairs anyway. 

I would request that $3 or 4k is held in escrow until you launch next season and have the drive line properly checked out and OK'd.  If it is good to go that reserve money is released to the seller. If problems arise, that money would be used to rectify the issues.

If it were my purchase that what I would do.

Good luck...

Dale

[Della and Dave]

Well, we did the survey today.  It was a really nice day in Seward, but cold.  Not as bad as it could have been, but it is November in Alaska.  It went well, but it did generate a couple of questions that e could use some advice on. 

Polaris has been on he hard for about three weeks and there are some small osmotic blisters evident on the hull.  The bottom paint is in pretty poor shape, but not a lot of marine growth. It's peeling in spots and is essentially missing from where the boat must have been on stands, and the stands peeling off the paint for some reason.

There are at least three layers of paint on the hull, and the blisters go through all the layers into the gell coat.  The blisters are about 5/16 inch in diameter.  They are widely scattered and I am guessing there are probably 30 or so total. It seems like the advice seems to be wait until spring, remove the old bottom paint fix any blisters that extend into the base fiberglass, then epoxy over that and bottom paint.  That gets expensive, so the other option is to just treat the obvious blisters, and repaint over the existing paint.  That doesn't seem to me to be a solution likley to work.  Any advice on what would work, but not break the bank?  How many layers of paint is too many? 

The other issue the hose/heat exchanger for the Vee drive.  When we ran the engine on the hard, we cooled it with a hose attached to the raw water input into the Vee drive.  It leaked really bad somewhere, probably either the hose to the heat exchanger between the Vee drive or the heat exchanger itself.  There was quite a bit of green corrosion on the heat exchanger. 

The heat exchanger is a real "fill in expletive here" to get at under the galley sole.  Replacing hose is fairly straightforward, except for access, but if we need a heat exchanger, is that a Pearson part or is that available from somewhere else?  Does it have a zinc in it like the one on the engine?  Given how hard it is to get at, is that why it is all corroded? 

[Dale Tanski]

D & D,

Bottom - I look at your bottom paint issue as a blessing in that the stuff is already falling off.  It doesn't get much better than this when it comes to hard bottom paint.  You should be able to scrape the stuff off with a hand held paint scraper rather than sanding it off.  I owned a Sabre 30 at one point, and it had bottom paint flake as you describe with at least three coats on it.  I scrapped the entire boat in one afternoon.  It was even a bit fun watching the paint fall like scales from a dieing dragon. Easiest bottom job I have ever done. 

Our 365 started that way but there were sections where scraping was a real chore.  It took three of us on and off three weeks to get 80 percent of the bottom down to gelcoat.  Scraping or sanding is something you do around twenty other projects not as the main project.  I would also recommend carbide edged scrapers as they hold up much longer.

As for the blister problem, scrape the bottom first and then review the situation.  I would fix as required. If you want more assurance, barrier coat the bottom before new paint.  P 365's are not know for their blisters. As for paint I am fond of ablative paint. It wears away from use and minimizes the need for ever removing paint from the bottom of your boat again. It just gets thinner and thinner as the miles pass and every now and then you recoat.

V-Drive - I am a bit confused from your description.  Does your V-Drive have the heat exchanger mounted on top like this one or is yours some how mounted separate?



The top of the drive is cast iron so that can't be rotting with green but the tube that runs through it is bronze.  The design is for the oil to be flung off of the rotating gears and to land on the cooler tube and drip back down into the drive.

As for access, the picture above is what you see when the access floor hatch is removed.  Shouldn't be an issue.

Dale

[Della and Dave]

Dale, thanks. A lot.  Boy do I wish our future bilge looked like yours!

I made a mistake, the issue isn't the v drive heat exchanger, it's the transmission heat exchanger.  It's located under the galley floor on the port side forward of the engine room.  If I can figure out how to do it, I'll post a picture.  It is really flaking off green corrosion, so copper based material.  Do they usually have zincs?  Who makes them, because, while it is possible it could be saved, I think not.  Given the effort getting it out of there, I think the wise move would be to replace it anyway. 

Looking at the pictures, Polaris's sea cock is in a little different spot, further aft and further outboard. 

Some of the paint layers are really peeling in spots, but not all the layers and not everywhere, so I am not looking forward to a job stripping it down.  Because both Della and I work full time and have three kids, time to do the job ourselves is pretty limited.  I am not opposed to child labor, but we would probably have to employ the services of a yard to strip it at least.  Painting it wouldn't be too big a deal after it was stripped.  There is a yard in Seward that can strip it with a grit blast of some kind.  I think they use walnut shells. 

[Dale Tanski]

If it looks like the silver item in the picture it is the heat exchanger for the raw water to closed loop cooling water for the engine. 



This is what it looked like after I wire brushed it prior to painting.  You will note the small brass plug on the left end, that is a pencil zink.



Last I knew that heat exchanger was in the $300 range.  I might be worth it, seeing as you are going to remove it anyway, to have it looked at and evaluated.  It maybe fine, just visually looks not so good. If that's the case a new zink, and hour to clean up and a $5 rattle can of paint and you are good to go.

Stripping a bottom is the perfect job for a busy family.  It will not only promote bonding and togetherness, but it is an excellent chance to reinforce the thought of getting a good education, good job, yada yada.  It may however awaken the hands on skilled type personality, and that offspring may end up making more money than all the rest of you. 

Save your money for the three thousand other things you would like to do with the boat.

Dale

[SVJourney]

If it is either the engine heat exchanger, which Dale has shown, or the oil heat exchanger on the starboard side of the engine, here is a real excellent deal for them:

http://www.pearson365.com/forum/index.php?topic=1233.msg6586#msg6586

I think the guy had a $60 price tag on the coolers and they were brand new with decals and everything.

As far as Dale's bilge goes, don't be envious.  As with all of Dale's pics, I have to view them as boat porn.  Luscious, beautiful, and waaayy out of my league.  Fantastic to see though, something to lift the bar to its ultimate level.

Wayne

[PeteW]

Sorting through a 35 year old Pearson survey is part archaeological dig and part crime scene. You will need to determine what's been restored and what hasn't over the years. Anything "original" on a boat of that age becomes suspect.

So far you have determined 2 probably minor issues: blisters and a raw water leak. Instead of blisters, your marine surveyor should be looking for "bulls eyes" below the water line. These are caused by collisions with submerged rocks. I'm talking about the type of collision that will sink most other boats. Pearsons have very thick hulls and survive these types of incidents but may require gel coat removal and fiberglass repair. Lots of grinding. The aft part of the keel is hollow as is the rudder skeg. These can fill up with water if damaged.  There is a single bronze shoe that supports the rudder at the base of the skeg. Thinking about that keeps me awake at night.


I'm not surprised that pressurizing the raw water intake with a hose caused a leak. Its likely that a raw water hose was pulled or a petcock drain left open as part of winterizing. I'd check the fresh coolant level and run it till the thermostat opens. The hoses in an out of the heat exchangers will get warm. Your going to need some sort a raw coolant flow to keep from setting the wet exhaust on fire. Heat exchanger leaks are not deal killers. Your going to refurbish all that stuff in the spring anyway.  But coolant coming out of the engine block is more serious. There are freeze plugs on these motors and its winter in Alaska. This should also allow you to determine the truth about the oil in the bilge.

Plan on replacing the chain plates. This is the weak link in the standing rigging. I say replace because they will need to be removed to determine if there is corrosion. At that point might as well put new ones in. My 1976 Pearson had 5 broken chain plates when I bought it. Hitting them with a sledge hammer will give you a clue about their integrity.

Have your surveyor crawl down into the sail locker and check the steering quadrant stop beam. Mine was rotted and broken.

Deck core issues will show up at the deckhouse mast boot. Leaks here over the years cause rot in the deck and at the mast step down below. Standing water on the deck house around the mast spells trouble.

Pete,  SV Tartanic 365 hull # 6

P.S My free file server went dark, so I am looking at rebuilding my photo posts out of a new site. This will take some time to fix.

Dale,  Nice looking drive shaft.  I still can't figure out why mine has a u-joint at both ends. No alignment needed . My shaft looks like it came out of a corvette. Its automotive. Hey time to replace that tapered plug with thru-hull with a modern flange ball valve and redo the tube with a new hose and toggle clamps. My peidro tube hose was rotted and my boat almost sank. Stuffing boxes for the 365 can be purchased at buck-Algonquin.

[Dale Tanski]

Pete,

I have begun working my way around the boat regarding seacocks.  I had one side of a tapered plug crack which became a problem.  That prompted me to reinspect and replace.

Good call on the prop shaft hose. I did look it over before I launched the boat for the ride home but that was 7 years ago.  Time that bad boy gets replaced as well.

Thanks...

Dale

[Della and Dave]

Thanks again for all the great advice. On the oil cooler.  I have one more sort of ignorant question.  When shifting a velvet drive transmission on the hard, is it normal not to be able to find neutral? 

The shift lever was not in the center, but that could be just cable adjustment, but I would have thought it would be possible to find a neutral spots somewhere. Or is it just normal slip in the tranny because there isn't anything to push against out of the water? It shifts fine from fwd to reverse and back, just no noticeable stop in the middle. 

It's -4 F outside and should be getting cold tonight.....  Won't be sailing for a little while yet.   

[Jim Cozy]

I just installed a rebuilt velvet drive last spring. There is a positive ball/spring stop at forward, neutral, and reverse. Test it by going directly to the tranny and disconnecting the cable. Then operate the shift lever on the tranny by hand. You will definitely feel the stops. If not, tranny work. Good luck. Jim

[Della and Dave]

Later this week we close the deal on Polaris and she goes in for refit as soon as weather allows from there.  We will be getting new heat exchangers in the mail tomorrow.  Here is what the old one looks like.  In addition, the hose clamps are rusted and there is a screw through the deck digging into the hose.  I plan on relocating it above the transmission.  It looks like a bunch of other 365s with the velvet drive have done.  Access where it is now is awful, putting it mildly.  (Another word comes to mind.....).



In planning this job, I have a couple of questions about the way she is supposed to be plumbed, because I don't think it is currently right. 

1) How is the water supposed to flow?  I ask because when we ran her on the hard, water was coming out of the starboard cockpit scupper through hull fitting, in addition to the exhaust.  The surveyor, broker and us, sort of went "huh?...."  From what I have gathered, mostly from Dale's help, it is supposed to come in through the seacock on the starboard side,  through a strainer, through the Vee drive heat exchanger, through the transmission oil heat exchanger, into the engine coolant heat exchanger, and then into the exhaust manifold.  There it mixes with the exhaust and goes out through the black can thing and out the transom with the exhaust gasses.  Somewhere it must go through the raw water impeller, but i don't know where in the sequence that is supposed to be plumbed.  Is that right? 

2) what kind of hoses do you use?  A surveyor told me not to use standard radiator hose on the suction side.  Needed to be wire reinforced hoses on the suction side o they don't collapse.  What are you guys using that works? 

3). How much pressure do the transmission cooler hoses need be rated for.  They look like high pressure hoses to me, but do they need to be?