Pearson 365 as Bluewater Boat???

[graemek]

have added two 2" drains to cockpit,as you say a must
also fitted seals to the cockpit lids,cockpit will fill with water must be water tight,also washboards need securing,hatch needs bolt to stop it opening when surfing down waves
anchor must have pin to lock it in the bow roller to stop it getting thrown back over coach roof in big seas

[INCOMMUNICADO]

S/V Rocky,I did have a concern about the volume of water the cockpit could hold and how much time it would take to drain.We were in on the edge of the stream wind northeast about twenty with very confused sea conditions when a wave invited it's self aboard over the starboard quarter.This all happened so fast all I could do was watch.We had two wash boards in place cockpit lockers latched and I was hand steering.What I saw was the cockpit fill to about half way up the lower washboard ,cockpit cushions floating and everything else in the cockpit washed about.The best I can estimate it took between thirty to fifty secends to drain the half filled cockpit.No damage at all.This made me think how to add more drainage.Looking at the 1 1/2 seacocks that have 1 1/16 drain capacity there must be another way.I got some fiberglass exhaust tubing 2.75" dia.Cut a hole in the after wall of the cockpit and cut through the transom and glassed the tube in at a downward angle.Now I have more than twice the drain capacity. I hope this helps Allen

[SailingSeaDragon]

Graemek,

Nice addition... The day we took delivery of Sea Dragon we were moving her to her new berth motoring into nasty wind and waves when I heard a terrible crash and pounding sound coming from the bow. I moved forward to find our 35# CQR had bounced off the anchor roller and was bashing against the port side. To this day we have noticeable area on the port bow were anchor made it mark. The very first boat project was to add a bail at the roller and a chain lock to hold the anchor in place.

Pinning the washboards and adding a bolt to the hatch are projects on our list as well..

Thanks,
Garner

[Johnzion]

Great comments and suggestions on the scuppers. I will look into that.Thanks also for the link to look up.

Allen, where did you glass in the tube? Near seat level? Or lower?

How does everybody find the 365 sails in light airs and heavy winds/big seas???

We did the sea trial a few days ago, had 6 knots of wind, boat was going along at 3 knots. Thought that was pretty good. But I have no experience of this boat in heavy weather.

[INCOMMUNICADO]

Johnzion,I put the drain about an inch off the deck.I have pictures I will try agin to post them. Allen

[Randy]

I just returned (Saturday) a Leopard 43 catamaran from Tortola, BVI to Norfolk, VA. We followed TS Debbie up the coast. Would I have wanted to be in my 365? In a word, NO! However, with that said, in today's tech world being in bad weather is more a matter of poor planning than anything else. A 365 will go the distance if you are careful with your weather windows. My best suggestion is to spend the $ on Sirrius Sat Weather, a sat phone, all the safety gear you can possibly afford and plenty of dramamine. Lastly, it also depends on your def of "bluewater". Sailing across the Atlantic or Pacific Oceans is a bluewater experience. Sailing the "thornypath" to the Caribbean is not and can easily be accomplished in a 365, if you properly plan and are careful. My $.02. 

[zaya]

Randy, I'm curious to know what makes you say the 365 would not be as safe as the catamaran ? In a storm, a catamaran is the last place I want to be, I personally know of a 50 footer catamaran who flipped in calm water (3-4 foot chop) ,with williwaw wind probably gusting to 40-50. I just can't imagine what would happen to a catamaran in a storm a  sea (by storm, I mean breaking seas, and the associated wind).

As far as the 365, I've been in some minor conditions (50kt. with some breaking seas). The boat behave quite well, I have done both laying ahull and running.

Running with bare poles, I would get 5-6 knot, and reasonable control. I wish I had the cutter, so I could have rigged a tiny stormsail, not for power, but for directional stability. Some big waves would sometimes throw me beam to the sea, not great! However, the 365 does not surf easily enough, and that's probably why I would not push the 365. As I believe, that when the breaking seas gets bigger, quickly taking on a surf is the way to minimize impact and taking on water aboard.

Laying ahull, also works OK. I laid ahull many times, when running with the storm was inconvenient. Of course, only lay ahull, after making sure the seas won't knock the boat down. I noticed that, the 365 glide gently when hit by a breaking sea, and I think this is due the the shallow keel which offer very little resistance, a very good counterintuitive feature for heavy weather tactics, which is why I now believe centerboarders (like Jimmy Cornell's Aventura 3) is a very good design, although upwind performance suffers.

To sum up, here is what I have done in bad weather, with a ketch, 130% genoa (way too big by the way!), main ,mizzen:

25-30kts: not technically a storm, but let's say the wind is coming from where you want to go:  heave to, with double reefed-main and rolled up genoa
30-40kts: the boat heels too much with previous configuration, so heave-to with mizzen only
40-50kts: again, the boat will heel too much with only the mizzen, so lay ahull or run
50kts+: definitely run with bare pole
60kts+: never been there !!!

I'll be curious to know what other 365 owners do in bad weather.
Phil

[graemek]

as zaya +1
have not been offshore in more than 45 knot wind ,i have a storm jib on an inner fore stay and a storm try-sail instead of the main as i find the main is just to big and i have 4 reef points,the try-sail is set above the boom so is quite high up this does induce more list but the north Atlantic where i sail has short sharp seas and i find i loose steering way in the troughs,but i do use a Jordan series drogue to control the speed down wind

[Randy]

Zaya, that's not what I said. There were plenty of times I did not want to be on the Cat.
Personally, I think the 365 is a great Caribbean cruiser. But, I would not try to force a square peg in a round hole. There are much better "blue water" boats out there. I guess you can spend lots of treasure on outfitting a 365 for Atlantic crossing, but all I was saying is that I would use the boat for what Bill Shaw designed it to be, a Bahama/Caribbean cruising boat. I would spend my treasure on ALL the safety gear I could afford and use the boat as it was intended.

[Johnzion]

Great advice everyone . . . .

Zaya - thank you for the breakdown of what you do at certain wind speeds. Qustion -if I understand you, you would like to be able to go fast enough to surf down waves when the wind and seas are heavy. Is that correct? I thought surfing was dangerous, because of possibility of losing control, turning sideways, etc. Don't know myself, so interested in your, and others, thoughts on this.

Randy - point well taken. I hear what you are saying. Thank you.

BTW - I posted another question/post about if P365 hulls are balsa cored or not. If you have any input, please check it out [find under 'cored hulls or solid glass?'].

John

[graemek]

hi johnzion
That is why i use a series drogue this slows the boat down,you adjust it so you just stay ahead of the breaking waves but not go so fast as to risk pitch polling in to the next wave,only problem i have with it is you can not use it near the coast or near other craft as the trail of drogue's is 150mtrs long as it picks up on the preceding wave

[zaya]

To surf or not to surf, that is the question ?

I'm afraid one will have  to try for himself what he considers the safest, with his particular boat. This can be a whole subject of its own.

And to be honest, I don't believe one should take the 365 in these conditions voluntarily (aka sailing the high latitudes, or in stormy waters without checking the weather (and note that the weather is not 100% predictable, even with today's technology).

The 365 is just too flimsy to take that kind of beating, and still be in good shape afterwards; it will probably survive, but I'll expect to see structural damage at the bulkheads and deck joint. And the constant flexing of the hull will also surely put a lot of wear on the rig due to metal fatigue. why inflict such treatment to the 365?

Surfing allows escaping the breaking sea. The skipper will have to negotiate each and every wave, it is very tiring. Plus the boat may not take on the surf fast/easily enough. My understanding is that surfing is the safest option, and it suits best modern design (fin keel, centerboards, etc)

Now if you can't apply proper surfing (aka the boat won't surf good enough; the skipper/crew is tired; it's at night, and the sea is just too confused), then the drogue technique is probably the best bet.

This being said, Randy is right, the 365 is not a true bluewater boat, and should not be taken in area where heavy storms are likely. Atlantic or Pacific crossings ? yes, no problem. High latitudes ? NO.

[Bev & Billy on Sta-sea-dawn]

The sump bothers me too, thinking of filling some sort of marine foam and glassing over the top leaving room for pumps. Any other thoughts? And I don't regret the $$ for the NFM ports. They look good and it would take a big hit to break them.
I have or maybe had a book on fitting out an offshore boat, can't seem to find it right now. I think John Vigor is the author, it has a lot of good info and a questioner to rate your boat for offshore work. The cutter scored well. The book shows you how to make a boat seaworthy some boats take more work than others. He has a section on how a Catalina 27 evolved into a around the work boat.
Leo

Hey everyone...I have been off the site for a while...I just almost sunk my 365 with the sump opened on a hard grounding. I broke several of my own rules...I had sea tow and the tide in my favor if I had waited for either.......I was on a pivotal hard rock directly under the sump.  I let a gung-ho big power boater put a line on the boat and ignore my instructions.  Hence, proceeded to pull me in a circle twice like a top.  By the time I got the line off the hidden damaged was done.  The tide lighted and sea-tow nudge me off easily.  I notice the auto-bilge cycling but did not pay attention.  I had to get grand kids home by dark so I rushed off after minor stowing of gear.  I returned the next day to stow sails and check dock lines.  I did not hear the pump cycling about every 30 minutes.

Three days later when the starting battery that I had the auto pump connected to died.  My shore charger was on the house bank running my refrigeration. The water in the bilge got high enough to compromise the work I was doing on the galley sink.  I had the drain that goes to the cockpit drain disconnected.  The vessel was going down by the bow.  Quickly.  The marina manager notice the changing water line and stuck a huge bilge pimp in her and restored the water line.  After frantic trip to the marina, I cranked the Perkins and motored for 2 minutes to the lift and hauled the vessel.  Finding the gash in the layers of glass on the keel.  So you can sink you boat if you do not use common sense and due diligence.

So, after repairing the keel and adding 2 inches of clothe and glass in the bottom of the sump and a new bottom job, in the water with a dry sump. 
I had to drain the v-drive...transmission...motor oils.

My question is what was suggested in the thread......filling the sump and sealing it at a smaller area for the sump pumps.  What material would the members suggest using to fill the compartment.  Open to suggestions......heed this and do not do what I did........billy

[Bev & Billy on Sta-sea-dawn]

Hey everyone...I have been off the site for a while...I just almost sunk my 365 with the sump opened on a hard grounding. I broke several of my own rules...I had sea tow and the tide in my favor if I had waited for either.......I was on a pivotal hard rock directly under the sump.  I let a gung-ho big power boater put a line on the boat and ignore my instructions.  Hence, proceeded to pull me in a circle twice like a top.  By the time I got the line off the hidden damaged was done.  The tide lighted and sea-tow nudge me off easily.  I notice the auto-bilge cycling but did not pay attention.  I had to get grand kids home by dark so I rushed off after minor stowing of gear.  I returned the next day to stow sails and check dock lines.  I did not hear the pump cycling about every 30 minutes.

Three days later when the starting battery that I had the auto pump connected to died.  My shore charger was on the house bank running my refrigeration. The water in the bilge got high enough to compromise the work I was doing on the galley sink.  I had the drain that goes to the cockpit drain disconnected.  The vessel was going down by the bow.  Quickly.  The marina manager notice the changing water line and stuck a huge bilge pimp in her and restored the water line.  After frantic trip to the marina, I cranked the Perkins and motored for 2 minutes to the lift and hauled the vessel.  Finding the gash in the layers of glass on the keel.  So you can sink you boat if you do not use common sense and due diligence.

So, after repairing the keel and adding 2 inches of clothe and glass in the bottom of the sump and a new bottom job, in the water with a dry sump. 
I had to drain the v-drive...transmission...motor oils.

My question is what was suggested in the thread......filling the sump and sealing it at a smaller area for the sump pumps.  What material would the members suggest using to fill the compartment.  Open to suggestions......heed this and do not do what I did........billy

[graemek]

glad it all turned out ok,filled mine half way up with cement then glassed over the top with 5 layers then replaced bilge pump in top half of sump