Pearson 365 as Bluewater Boat???

[Johnzion]

Hello everyone - Wondering what the thinking is on the Pearson 365 [ketch] being a bluewater boat? How capable is it offshore? I know skipper must good, but lets just focus on the boat itself. Advantages, disadvantages, personal experiences and tales of others circumnavigating, crossing the ocean, etc. Easy motion, sail balance, experiences with good auto pilots, windvanes, steering with balanced main and mizzen?

How hard will it be to mount a windvane with the mizzen and solar panels on the davits??? Or is there a decent way to get along without a windvane if short handed and heading out across the ocean???

Any and all advice appreciated. About to buy a 1980 365 in MD. Will live aboard and sail the East Coast, then head further afield.

John

[zaya]

the Pearson 365 as Bluewater ? well it depends ...

It depends on what blue water means first! and it depends on what one is willing to trade off.

To me bluewater means:

1. a strong hull, ability to hit stuff offshore, and ability to withstand to sea, in storms and going to weather. Being a fiberglass boat, the Pearson 365 would be above average, it is fairly strong, but you can easily see its limit after 1000 miles against 20 knts. A stiffer hull would be welcome. I do believe it could handle a minor impact, thanks to the shape of the hull and thickness.
2. good sail handling. it is decent for cruising boat. the cutter version probably to be preferred.
3.  accomodations: can't be beat for a couple. really good.
4. windvane: yes, solar panels: challenging with the ketch, but can be done
5. skipper skills: probably the most important, but a good boat will probably save your a**.

My personal conclusion, is that the pearson 365 is probably one of the best blue water boat in that category and price range. By no means, I'm saying it is a great blue water boat! There are much better boats out there, but they do cost more and/or are harder to find. I have been very happy with my Pearson 365, but I definitely need another boat for the next adventure.

[graemek]

Hi
I own a 365 called pilgrim,and it is converted to do the atlantic @ pacific crossings,leaving the UK in august
I have two 80w solar pannels and a wind pilot pacific on the stern,see picks under 'bimini photos ketch' inNon-Mechanical System Maintenance and Repair
,http://s950.photobucket.com/albums/ad341/graemek_photo/pearson365/
the standed wind pilot fits ok with the mizen,just have to watch the sail trim if you use moor than a 110% genoa,I have to run with one reef in the main as i have a 150% genoa the mizen is ok as long as you dont sheet it in to hard,if you need foto's of the wind pilot set up let me know,peter forthman at wind pilot has all the info on the pearson 365 setup,I got mine on e-bay for $1000
in my mind a wind vane is a must

[SailingSeaDragon]

Some thoughts on the 365/367 as bluewater boat.

Offshore Characteristics of the Pearson 365/367

I realize the question was not about the 365/367's sailing characteristics but I thought I would add a few additional thoughts to this discussion. Being the nerd I am, I have a tendency to start with the numbers.

The book "Desirable and Undesirable Characteristics of Offshore Yachts" by the Technical Committee of the Cruising Club of America is good read on this topic and talks about construction, features, and other considerations of an offshore or blue water boat.

The committee's number one concerns revolved around capsizing. Their focused first a boat's resistance to capsizing and second a boat's ability to right itself should it capsize. To this end they focused on several numbers.

First Capsize Screen Formula (CSF)

The Capsize Screening Formula is a somewhat controversial figure. It came into being after the 1979 Fastnet race in England where a storm shredded the race fleet. The Cruising Club of America (CCA) technical committee analyzed race boat data and came up with this formula to compare boats based on readily available data. A lower value is supposed to indicate a boat is less likely to capsize. A value of 2 is taken as a cut off for acceptable to certain race committees. However this is an arbitrary cutoff based on the performance of boats in the '79 Fastnet. The CSF takes no account of hull shape or ballast location. The CCA characterizes the formula as "rough".  But still one of the most commonly used factors for comparing boats

The Pearson 365/7's CSF is 1.76

Next the Angle of Vanishing Stability (AVS)

This is the resistance to capsize and heel.  One of the best predictors of ultimate stability is the "angle of vanishing stability" or the angle to which the boat can heel and still right itself. A dingy will have a stability range of about 80 degrees, an inland water boat should have a stability range of 100 degrees, and an offshore boat of at least 120 degrees.  Boats which have a stability angle of less than 140 degrees may be left floating upside down once capsized.  Boats with a higher angle will usually right themselves.

The Pearson 365/7's AVS is approx. 150


Finally, the Displacement to Length Ratio (D/L)

D/L  Ratio is the displacement to length ratio.  This indicates if the boat is a heavy cruiser (results greater than 325) or a light displacement racing boat (results less than 200). Traditional wisdom called for offshore cruising boats to have a D/L closer to 300 than 200.

The Pearson 365/7's D/L is 293

Next the committee talked about steering and rudder design. After capsizing the next most important issue was loss of steering due to rudder failure. The committee felt that keel or skeg hung rudders were preferred for offshore boats.

Pearson's rudder is skeg hung.

Construction

Now I will provide my thoughts on the construction of the Pearson 365. Anyone that has had their rigging replaced will already know that it is heavier than similar size boats... Nice

Next the hull and deck are both heavier than similar boats. Nice

The boat is built with a liner that is well tabbed to the hull and has a solid bulkhead separating the cabin from the engine area. Once again. nice.

The hull to deck joint has already been discussed and while strong enough could be improved by through bolting with screws and bolts not sheet metal screws. However, our boat actually has the deck glassed to the hull.

Another area of concern is the installation of the ports and hatches. Both the hatches and the ports on Sea Dragon are not through bolted but held in place with sheet metal screws and adhesive. I would suggest that through bolting with screws & nuts would be an improvement in construction... Also better quality ports would be in order for Sea Dragon.

Next the cockpit

The cockpit could use a second set of drains aft, also mentioned in other threads. Next the cockpit lockers are not water tight by any means and should the vessel roll or hit with a large wave there is a chance that large amounts of water could/would enter the boat. So sealing the lockers would be good move.

Other weak points on the boat... First there is the issue of the deep sump in the aft portion of the keel.. This strikes me as an area of risk and should be filled in some way.. Next there is no water tight compartment in the bow.... A simple and reasonable modification would be to modify the anchor locker so that it becomes a water tight compartment should there be collision. This would fall in the area of construction.

Just my thoughts for what it is worth.

Garner

[Bay Sailor]

Garner,

Thanks very much for providing so much useful and interesting information to us all. I too have done quite a bit of reading and researching before buying my sloop, and although I would have preferred a cutter there wasn't one to even consider anywhere nearby. Still, in all my searches and conversations I invariably felt convinced that our Pearsons are an entirely good choice for ocean cruising for all the reasons you've mentioned. While never touted as "the best" in any single technical or practical way I too think I've made a good purchase and that I will be safe and comfortable in all but the worst/most dangerous conditions.

I hope that you and others will discuss why the deep sump might be a problem. Are you referring to the bilge? I have thought that it would be a good idea as it allows for more than one pump and would therefore provide a buffer against filling and overflowing onto the cabin floor.

Also, how would one make the chain locker airtight? Sounds very smart.

Do you have suggestions for better portlights might be that would not require "remodeling"?

Mark

[SailingSeaDragon]

Mark,

When I mentioned the sump I was referring to the deep (much worst on the cutter) bilge in the aft portion of the keel. My concern is that this area is the weakest part of the keel and could be damaged in a hard grounding.

As for the ports I have started the process upgrading Sea Dragon by replacing the opening ports with SS NFM ports. This is an easy replacement and many of the people on this site have made the swap.

http://www.sailingseadragon.com/Ports.htm

I am very happy with them... I have not come up with an answer I really like for the fixed ports but Leo's (Sol) approach is the one I like the most but for the $$$$$:(

Dale has taken different approach that is very interesting.

Garner

[Bay Sailor]

Thanks very much for documenting your work; will come in very handy when I get things squared away with engine and plumbing.

Mark

[Leo]

The sump bothers me too, thinking of filling some sort of marine foam and glassing over the top leaving room for pumps. Any other thoughts? And I don't regret the $$ for the NFM ports. They look good and it would take a big hit to break them.
I have or maybe had a book on fitting out an offshore boat, can't seem to find it right now. I think John Vigor is the author, it has a lot of good info and a questioner to rate your boat for offshore work. The cutter scored well. The book shows you how to make a boat seaworthy some boats take more work than others. He has a section on how a Catalina 27 evolved into a around the work boat.

Leo

[Johnzion]

Thanks everybody for the great info.

Is there anyone out there who has taken a 365 across the ocean to give their 2 cents? Or does anyone know of people who have?

Thanks again,

John

[SailingSeaDragon]

John

Go to www.sailingseadragon.com , then "Adventures" scroll down and you will find accounts of two boats that have crossed several oceans.

Enjoy
Garner

[Bay Sailor]

Thanks everybody for the great info.

Is there anyone out there who has taken a 365 across the ocean to give their 2 cents? Or does anyone know of people who have?

Thanks again,

John

John, I believe the book you seek is Vigor's "Seaworthy Offshore Sailboat: A Guide to Essential Features, Handling, and Gear".

Mark

[INCOMMUNICADO]

Garner,Thanks for all the great information it reminded me of some of the reasons I purchased Incommunicado twentyfive years ago.To anyone else please don't tell me that a 365 isn't a blue water boat.That would give me and the boat something extra to worry about.After thinking and treating her like a blue water boat all these years.I am fiftyeight now and she is thirtysix,she can still take a lot more than I can.Use your head pick your battles, I think she will take you anywere you would like to go. Allen

[graemek]

hi
if you can wait for a replie..  i am leaving the UK in august to cross the atlantic to the carib then thro the panama to cross the pacific ,if i dont post next year...not a good boat then
ocean pilgrim

[SVJourney]

http://www.mahina.com/cruise.html  There's a list of capable boats at the bottom of the page.

[RockysMate]

   Has anyone added larger cockpit scuppers aft?   That seems to me to be the biggest weakness. The Dorades should replaced with ones that can be closed from inside the boat.  The lazeretts worry me more than any other component.  I intend to install that latches with levers to pull the seat down. The boat also lacks adaquate latches to keep the groceries in the lockers and the wine in the bilge. 
I suggest that anyone interested in seaworthiness consult "Seaworthiness, The Forgotten Factor" by CA Marchaj.    Marchaj  has the very best explanations about why one boat is more seaworthy than another.  He picks apart the committee's report and accuses them of ignoring the elephant in the room: Size.  He also discusses the movement of water columns and molecular effect of water on different shaped hulls.  He has lots of math for those who want to see the numbers. His explanations and illustrations are the best.   
   The cut-away of the keel will cause the bow to rise out of the water if it strikes a submerged object head on.  And the hull at this point is very thick,  little chance of damage.   In the navy we once spent a hole day shooting holes in ship to make a fish habitat.  The ship did not sink because the holes were above the water line. 
   The Pearson 365 is not blue water boat as built but I intend to make an Atlantic Crossing in mine once it is ready.