New to the board

[Bay Sailor]

Hey fellas,

I've had to cancel my purchase of the 365 sloop you've all helped with. My engine surveyor reports around $6k in repairs and maintenance, which includes a valve job. He then shared his report with one of the best mechanics in the area -both of whom were recommended by 3 different people- and he says that even with the immediate valve job and injector pump I will always be wondering when the leaky main seal is going to blow thus ruining my engine, or discover that water has been getting by the rings over a period of time. When started cold it blew a large cloud of white smoke which is definitely not a good sign. The valve springs are visibly rusted, the oil cap on top of the valve cover was covered with milky oil. I explained to the seller, who was already making me a wonderful deal on the boat, that I'd happily spend the $6k if anyone could assure me that my engine would be sound over a period of time but neither mechanic nor surveyor will say any such thing. Remarkably, the mechanic actually refused to take my money to do the work. Pretty tough to ignore that kind of advice. There are many other items on the 'do' list that I'd easily do myself but I can't justify the worries about an frying my engine somewhere out in the Pacific, which is where I'm headed. The engine survey was $400-, the marine survey would be $726 with a climb up the mast and then $314 for a noontime "haul and hang" to inspect the hull. I am totally and utterly defeated on this one. Sunk. She was without a doubt the most well kept and desirable boat I have looked at.

Last for now, if anyone hears of an excellent 365 sloop or cutter out here on the west coast please take a minute to let me know. (I'm not looking at ketch's because I'll probably be single handing and its just too much gear to handle and also to maintain).

Mark

[slokat]

We pulled and totally rebuilt our westerbeke when we bought WindTamer last year - cost with crane, water towing, mechanic, machine shop and refit/install was just under $9k.

And engine is like new.

[slokat]

Wife just reminded me that the engine rebuild itself was under $5k, we had to replace other items like cooling system, exhaust, heat exchanger... and the other $ amounts went into dry dock, towing etc. etc.

[Bay Sailor]

I should have not taken back my deposit today; that was a mistake. Tomorrow I'll get a price for a complete rebuild. Thanks for the note.

MF

[RayNWanda]

That is why a survey is so important. It is better to be out a few hundred than thousands.

I would not necessairily write off the ketches. I know Ed Houston singlehands often. We are going to lead our main halyard and reefing lines back to the cockpit to make the boat more friendly for singlehanding. Also, the ketch will sail pretty well balanced in a blow on a small jib and the mizzen. The rig is a little more complicated, but there are some advantages to it too.

[dutchie]

I sail mine ketch mostly single handed, when things are going wrong is when I have a crew aboard  . It handles very well as-special when setting sail. first hoist the mizzen and pull in the mizzen sheet it will point upwind  by its own then setting the main and last but not least the jib, and this all without touching the autopilot. when tacking Upwind you only have to handle the Jib. Only when you plan to do a jibe its a hand full of work especial these running back-stays. But a good planning will solve also this.     

Good luck with finding your lady

[Bay Sailor]

We pulled and totally rebuilt our westerbeke when we bought WindTamer last year - cost with crane, water towing, mechanic, machine shop and refit/install was just under $9k.

And engine is like new.

Slokat, thanks for the info. My local Westerbeke/Perkins dealer just quoted "approximately" $10k depending upon what "marine equipment" can stay and what will need to be bought new or rebuilt. I'm checking around for alternatives.

MF

[Dale Tanski]

Ok, I must admit I have been following this thread and I just have to add my two cents.
Cent 1) I have purchased a few too many boats according to my wife, but the one thing I have learned is a non-flattering survey is a buyer's best friend.  Before kid number 3 & 4 I thought we had enough money to own an F&C 44.  One came on to the market in Rockland, Maine for $140k, well above our price point but we went to look her over anyway.  I came away from the boat with stars in my eyes and a list of items that needed attention and called the broker.  He admitted that he had not looked at the boat but could not believe the boat could have fallen into such condition in the few short years since he had sold her to the current owner.  He immediately visited the boat and agreed with my findings and shared a half a dozen other items that he found.  He approached the owner and called me back to say the price had just been adjusted down by 20K to $120K.  Unfortunately, our target was under $100K.
That was in the fall.  In the spring we returned to Rockland for another look.  My heart raced once again but $120K was out of reach but I kept in touch with the broker.  Another suitor offered the asking price of $120K. This is an important point.  Once you meet the asking price, sign the contract and hand the broker a 10% deposit check, (which goes in a drawer until the boat is paid for) the seller is locked in. The smart buyer had two contingencies, a good survey and financing. Financing is the ultimate out.  If you in the end do not want the boat, all you have to say that the monthly payment was just too high and you get your deposit check back and walk away. There isn't a boat afloat that a good surveyor can't find something wrong with.  Such was the case.  The surveyor had a list and a half on this F&C 44, many of the same items the seller already dropped down the $20K on.  The bottom line is that the surveyor added up the total on the deficiencies to the tune of $25K.  $120K – 25K = $95K. The buyer simply said I was willing to pay your asking price, (signed the contract with the asking price) however the boat now has $25K of problems.  I'll still want the boat but at the adjusted price of $95K.  The seller faced with the deficiencies in writing by a third party, took the offer and the boat was sold. 
I cried, but did learned a valuable lesson.  Most buyers counter offer right off the bat, then fill out a contract with that offer.  The buyer can reject it right out of the box because it was not the asking price, and it is looked at strictly as a price reduction coming right out of the seller's pocket.  A not so flattering survey makes the seller take a more realistic approach and is pure leverage in the buyer's hands.
So, the engine is shot, and there is a, or better still, several avaliable numbers to fix that issue.  If the boat you are looking at is $50K and the engine repair/replace is $10K your offer is now $40K.  If there are $5K of other items the surveyor found, your are now offering $35K.  It is one thing to ask the seller to drop his price $15K because you want the boat cheaper, but is a much better to share the new found knowledge of your survey and say  that the boat is in reality worth $15K less then you and the seller thought.  Remember, you also end up with a new engine if the offer is accepted. You are not the bad guy, the surveyor is sort of the bad guy and the seller figures he is not the bad guy either because he didn't know.
Cent 2) If you are going to be sailing shorthanded or you are no longer 21 years old, strongly consider the ketch.  It would appear that you will be sailing in SF Bay, an area where by most standards it howls.  Consider this...  The weight of the mainsail of the sloop vs. the weight of a much smaller main in a separate sail bag and mizzen in its separate sail bag when it is time to drag the sails home for the season or repairs.  Cranking one big mainsail to the taller masthead, or two smaller sails if indeed you want both up.  The sloop has a larger fore triangle, with again bigger, heavier sails.  Options in various weather conditions...  reefing the sloop rig (tough to do singlehanded) or dousing the mizzen in the safety of the cockpit.  Bridge clearance.  Options while balancing the sail plan to save the autopilot or your arms.  Mainsheet loads.  Mounting of a radar dome.  Wind generator location. 
People say a split rig clutters up the cockpit.  Indeed it does! I in my view that is a good thing indeed.  In a rough and tumble sea, I am looking for everything and anything to hold on to when exiting the cockpit and moving forward.  The ketch has several additional handholds and natural safety harness points while moving forward.  The mizzen boom makes a natural cockpit awning support.  I have a VHF antenna on each stick, one for everyday use and the mizzen as a backup.  I also have a deck light on each.  The mizzen deck light illuminates the cockpit, entire cabin top and side decks.  This is invaluable while docking at night and buttoning up the sail covers. 
If you are a reacher, a mizzen staysail is a wondrous thing.  The mizzen boom makes a great life sling hoist as well as a point to lift your dinks outboard.  If you anchor often, a set mizzen or a ridding sail will keep the boat from hunting at anchor. 
There are some ketches out there (like ours) that came from the factory rigged with an inner forestay and a self tending inner jib.  This splits the headsails into two smaller, easier handled packages.  The self tending clubfoot jib is a nice touch.  If nothing else, consider the cutter rig at the very least if not the ketch for you sailing area.  A ketch will not go to weather like a sloop, but if you are looking for VMG upwind a P365 in any configuration is not the answer.
Hope all goes well.
Good Sailing...  Dale Tanski

[S/V Deo Volente]

You may want to talk to Foley engines for a replacement, they do rebuilds on perkins 4-108s with some claimed improvements. The seller should adjust the price to reflect the rebuild or re power