Welcoming feedback for modified rig idea for the 365 sloop

[SV Azimuth]

As owner of #297, a sloop, I've been brainstorming ways to increase the mainsail area so total sail area is more comparable to that of the ketch. What issues might arise if I installed a hard vang in order to remove the topping lift and redesigned the mainsail with more roach? I'm still limited by the backstay but figure there's room for more sail area in the leech. Moving the center of lift backwards should help pointing ability very minimally (right?) and adding two or three good reef points in there would maintain flexibility.

Very open to feedback here, it seems to make sense in my mind but I'd love some opinions from you all.

Thanks in advance!

[Dale Tanski]

I assume you are looking to carry more sail area for better performance.  Do not confuse sail area with performance.  The Ketch has more sail area on paper but I am willing to bet the Sloop or the Cutter will preform better with less.  The 367 has a deeper fin carrying the bulk of the ballast deeper. That in itself is huge.

If indeed you are looking for better performance how are you defining that?  The ability to point better?  Better boat speed or the ability to carry additional gear (weight) and still maintain well?  If you are truly looking for better performance using any of the above as a measure I would look at your bottom.  A rough cobble bottom will reduce speed and the ability to point.  The relatively high viscosity of water that the boat must travel through creates drag. Improving the surface condition of your bottom and that drag is reduced accordingly. As a racer, I am painfully aware of the drastic difference between a normal bottom and an excellent bottom.  I can tell when ours even becomes the slightest bit fouled as we can not maintain our lane or our relative boat speed against our competition.   Walk your boat yard and look (and feel) a real race boats bottom... there is a difference.

Sails would be another avenue to improve performance.  The foil shape left in the average set of cruising sails are from a performance point of view is typically pure garbage.  Most cruising sailors think nothing of using a set of sails for 20 plus years.  Race sails which are built to tighter tolerances, maximized for performance and cost multiples of what cruising skins cost often will only preform at top performance for mere hours.  It is not uncommon for top race boats to replace a set of sails after every regatta.  We evaluate cruising rags everyday.  Most cruising sailors or day sailors only replace a sail when it will no longer stay in one piece.   We repaired one gentleman's head sail 3 times in three weeks this spring, each time the fabric let go in a different spot.  It is one thing to use old worn out sails to get from point A to B, but to think that they get you there efficiently is delusional.  A new set of sails will improve performance noticeably providing one knows how to trim them. 

Adding roach to your main will not come without a penalty of sorts.  Longer or full length battens will be required and perhaps an increase of cloth weight to carry the additional loads may come into play.  Both add weight aloft, both are negative.  An increase in main sail sail area will change the sails center of effort and in the case of the main shift it aft.  This will increase weather helm on a boat that has more than its fair share already.

Have you thought of adding the cutter set up to your sloop?  The inner stay sail will increase efficiency upwind and provide you with additional options both to balance the boat in heavier air and adjust the horsepower as desired.

Dale Tanski
Obersheimer Sailor Supply
North Sails Buffalo NY
Maruska
Hull #40
Cutter Ketch

[SV Azimuth]

Thanks for the thorough response Dale! Your perspective is one I hoped I'd get.

Yes! I am definitely working through what it would take to install a baby stay (potentially removable) and the additional rigging that would be required for an added staysail. I like the benefits of the cutter rig and would welcome the ability to utilize that flexibility. There's a post on this page somewhere with a few pictures of the 367 setup I've gone through. I'm hoping to get or build a really comprehensive "guide" on that before beginning.

You're absolutely correct about the other aspects of speed and "performance" involved outside of the sail plan. We try to keep a relatively clean bottom and I find myself trimming sails more often than not while sailing, that's all part of the fun. I race often here in the SF Bay and understand it's a world of difference in racing vs cruising sails. Though I certainly don't plan on buying new cruising sails nearly as often as a racer, it's on the mid-term horizon for me and thus I'm beginning to ask these questions of those who know more.

I realize I'm addressing your points in reverse order so on to "performance". I'd hope to increase light air boat speed, and achieving a couple degrees of up-wind pointing ability would be phenomenal. I think a new set of sails would help with both, almost certainly. I guess at a certain point it's just the law of diminishing returns.

Oh, and I'm definitely jealous of the 367's keel but there's not much I can do about that.

[Dale Tanski]

They best improvement and most cost effective solution for light air performance and the ability to go to windward in a 365 is the motor.  That said, I suspected you were not the typical day sailor/cruiser by the way your post was worded. Once bitten by the lure of increased performance and having experienced applying what you know on the race course, it can't help but spill over into day to day sailing. Pulling strings is a sickness.

A great bottom, great sails and the ability to shift gears and adjust quickly to the conditions are the basic elements to the performance curve.  If you are looking for that elusive 1/4 knot and/or a degree or two in height it is achievable with a multitude of improvements.  I suspect you have a good understanding of what they are and how to apply them.  If you are looking to shave an hour off of a daylight run... think J36.

Another avenue to improvement would be a good folding prop, clean the boat out of the hundreds of pounds gear that seldom or ever gets used, and remember speed builds pressure.  What I mean by that is if you can get to move the boat that little bit faster, the apparent wind speed increases over deck, and an increase in apparent means you can make the boat go that little faster even still. This is the true meaning of diminishing returns. In a one design fleet it is life itself, in PHRF it is pure aggravation.

Good Luck

Dale