Rudder removal

[#143]

Hi. Paul here, wondering if anyone has ever removed/dropped the rudder? Seems pretty straight forward, until I get to the fiberglass extension that the bronze shoe rests on. Someone in the yard suggested the extension is made to come off, " it gets cut off, then glued back on" which doesn't seem right to me. My only option I see at this point would be to  unbolt the bearing (stuffing box), remove the shoe, and remove the bushing, if not the whole top of the wooden quadrant stop support. Then angle the rudder slightly to clear that fiberglass extension on the bottom of the skeg. Seems very complicated removal process to just be able to lower the rudder. It's gotten very stiff this past year so to the point that I concerned something will break in the steering system. Which means the stuffing box won't just slide up. And I've tried vinegar, WD40, PB Blaster, diesel, 30wt oil, Liquid Wrench, & NOTHING seeps down, there's so much scale and corrosion packed in there!
Another question, has anyone found out if the rudder stuffing box bolts are machine screws or are they threaded into the fiberglass? 2 show signs of corrosion caused by salt water seeping on them for years, (never did leak bad, just weeping). As you all know, due to limited access back there, it would be difficult to remove a broken bolt if they are threaded in the glass should one shear off.
Thanks for any insight,  Merry Christmas!   Regards, Paul

[S/V Deo Volente]

Hi Paul, do you have a 365 or a 367?
There are a couple old posts where the owners have tackled this.
http://www.pearson365.com/forum/index.php?topic=612.msg2736#msg2736
http://www.pearson365.com/forum/index.php?topic=1116.msg5840#msg5840

I believe with a little judicious grinding you will find there are bolts that were faired over.
Welcome to the forum.
Bob

[#143]

DV, I've already exposed the bolts on the bronze shoe. I removed the quadrant. The bolts were snug but came right out w/a little Blaster. The stuffing box is still in, tho I've wire rushed the nuts and exposed threads w/a Dremel, loosened them 1/4turn then snugged them again to give more Blaster a chance to get into the threads. With the stuffing box stuck on the shaft (I can barely move the rudder as it is) does the stuffing box have to be slid up the shaft for rudder removal. I saw an older post by Passing Wind, but no follow-up post. What did he find out about those 4 bolts? FH machine screws? Or were they drilled and tapped into the hull...it does look thick there. I was going to start grinding there to see, but, as the saying goes, a dumb question is smarter than a dumb mistake.

[S/V Deo Volente]

I don't have any first hand information for you, but I would bet those are machine screws holding that stuffing box.
I assume the packing nut and packing have been removed at this point.
Bob

[#143]

Affirmative on that, Bob. I loosened the 3  on the shoe this morning...phew, tough ones to free up! Heat gun & Blaster did it, in about 1.5 hrs. It's not off yet.. I think my next move is to wedge the rudder to keep it from lifting up, unbolt the stuffing box, and, hopefully lift to up the shaft with wooden wedges (remember, it is stuck there) I don't want to risk damaging it when the rudder is angled to clear the skeg

[#143]

Looking at those photos from Passing Wind, I figured the bottom piece below the bronze shoe separated from the skeg....low and behold, it did. Makes a whole lot more sense. If I had seen a picture of what it looked like taken off, it would've helped emensly.  There's one set of photos in those links that aren't available anymore. It's probably in that! So far, I've managed to wiggle the rudder down 1/4-5/16". Progress!

[#143]

So, my next question is: has anyone's actually found out how the rudder stuffing box is bolted in?  (multiple choice) Flat head machine screws (I've ground away to gelcoat, but don't see fastener fillings); glassed in carriage bolts? #3, tapped holes with allthread, or, studs? (This was common on Choy Lee botas during that era).

[S/V Deo Volente]

You may be the first to let us know. I just doubt that they tapped them in because it seems more labor intensive. I have been wrong about other things though.
Is it really necessary to remove the bolts/studs? If the nuts come off you may be able to wedge the stuffing box up. I know easier said than done especially working alone.

[#143]

Here's a question: seems the photos posted on Photobucket, by "Relentless" have been removed. He talked about draining the skeg....where did he drill to drain the liquid?.
With the brz shoe off I started drilling up in the bottom of the skeg...got up about 2.5" , but "didn t strike oil", then later, there was water seeping from the blind hole!

[#143]

Ok...it took me a day and a half to drop the rudder! A fight every 1/16" to the very end, where there was a very slight flair on the shaft right at the transition of round to square. I found the "bolts"to hold down the stuffing box were just tapped into the glass and had worked loose with the kind of force I used to move the rudder back & forth, pulling down at the same time. At the start, I had to use 4 5/8"x4" oak wedges and a wide wedge on top of rudder, to exert downward pressure. I had clamped a 2x6- 6' long (with a short 2x4 'pad' on the opposit side so the clamps wouldn't damage the rudder). What a workout! Once I found the system that worked, I made a pencil mark to keep an eye on progress. Late Sat, when the mark stayed the same after an hour of trying, I stopped too!.
Now time to plan the reverse procedure...

[S/V Deo Volente]

Interesting! I wonder if they set them into the wet layup, at lest that would fit my theory of the less labor in production. Just wondering why the tight fit on the stuffing box? Did you take pictures?
Bob

[#143]

Ok...let me rephrase that: after all that working the rudder back & forth (I had removed the nuts beforehand) the "studs" had gotten loosened. Okaaaay, so, when cleaning up all that silicone (& what a chore,: the glass base- no, mound is more like it-  has a lot of nooks & crannies...filled with silicone!). So, I vacuum out the holes, & with a strong flashlight & mirror, what do I see??? Bronze down inside each hole! What's a pirates favorite letter? (Arrrrrrr!). So, now I'm fixing someone else's work- I came tho the conclusion that the "studs" we're just set in silicone, judging by what I have removed from the holes. Ok...so, in order to avoid lifting that heavy rudder several/many times, I made a pretty straight octagon cut piece of wood on a table saw with the 1" rebate in the bottom to fit into the shoe hole.
So, there's 3 points of contact: the heel, the stuffing box, & the bushing just below the quadrant. I place the wooden guide in place, and, in order for the "shaft" to turn freely, I can make it through the heel & the stuffing box, but there's not enough room for the upper bushing. Well, no problem, I can sand out the wood to fit, then add a 1/8" piece so aluminum to help center the bushing...I mean, my upper bushing is pvc with an o-ring inside & out...not a lot of stress.
Because the old base is somewhat dome-shaped, I'm opting for cleaning up as much silicone as I can, adding a 1/4" fiberglass spacer ( I have the stock, already made it), drilling oversized holes (3/4", leaving a small 3/8" hole down deep to help center the stud),  and building up a base for the stuffing box to sit on by filling up around the dome w/105/206 West resin/404 filler. So far the dry fits seem good...but we all know that possibly could change with the actual epoxy in there...the saga continues...

[#143]

No simple 'drop the rudder" here...maybe because I live in mostly warm water all year 'round (& these past few yrs, full time), salt built up scale inside the stuffing box tube. Hauling out every season may delay this issue? I've noticed over the past few years when I Haden's used the boat in...a few months, the steering would be stiff at first, then loosen up with a few turns of the wheel. This past year, I got involved in a local wood shop that mostly does yacht carpentry (something I've done for the past 15+ yrs + a few way back in the 70's. Did I mention I had a 45 yr old wooden boat before this 365?...what was I thinking?)
All in all, the stock has minor pitting. Mostly where the stuffing box was touching the stock. I'm amazed...just like the strut bolts I just removed (1 at a time) they look good, I reused them,  tho the strut will need replacing in the (very) near future...I have 1 on order from Prue Foundry. Ha, I'll save that four next haul.
And, yes, I have pictures. Not sure how to post them...no time rt now to figure it out...I can send them via email if anyone wants...just send me ur email address.

[#143]

Happy New Year to all!
Well, finally back in the water! Just before New Years, too! Rudder movement is a breeze...what a difference.
Among the the other things I did this time were: add 3 layers of 12 oz biaxial to the top of the fairing block (the bottom of the rudder was about 1/8" below the fairing block), then I drilled down the thru the hole in the brz shoe enough to place a dome shaped SS thrust bearing inside. The rudder stock sits the same height above the shoe...maybe 1/16" more, for wear. I also added a zinc to the shoe.
On this haul out, I also had to glass the aft end of the keel, the 'Achilles Heel' as they yard didn't follow the diagram I left with the office, and blocked the boat on the sump. Which cracked the glass to where bilge water was dripping out. So, they blocked the boat higher, no charge, and I found that there wasn't much between the bilge and the sea! I ground out some of the bad glass...then I had holes in the boat! After washing it out(acetone to degrease, then a little fresh water, and letting it dry a couple of days.
I made a clear plastic template of the various sizes of pieces I needed to cut. All I had to do was just trim down the plastic to the next line to mark the next piece of glass.
I made a long handled mallet with the head covered with a folded up tee shirt rag covered with plastic, to jam over the biggest hole on the inside. I used West 655 thickens epoxy to give me some backing for the glass. (Once the epoxy was cured, it came right off).
I filled the dished out depressions with several smaller layers of biaxial before laying the bigger pieces on. The lay up was using West epoxy, 18 & 12 oz biaxial, 18 oz stitch cloth, & I put in a couple of 24oz roving, 9 layers total. The glass went up 8-10" up the sides. There's also 3-4 layers of 3/4oz mat that helped in fairing. I did it in 2 sessions as things kick off fairly quick in this ambient temperature. After the first 4 layers cured, I washed/scrubbed off the anime 'blush', then de glossed with 60 grit. Then did the next 5+ layers.
  It faired in pretty well, though If you look hard, you'd see a slight swelling in the keel there. Then West barrier coat.  I hope all that was clear!
I also changed the depth transducer this haul.

[S/V Deo Volente]

Sounds like it is a Happy New Year Paul! Thanks for documenting this. Nice to be able to put your boat back in. I'll be waiting another 4 months