Paragon SAOD: Another hapless cruiser

[Jim Cozy]

Under the heading "panic behavior, dumb, dumb": went aground, tried too hard to bring her off under power, shifted at high RPM, probably sheared planetary teeth. Anybody have a line on a rebuilt SAOD? I will try to rebuild myself if I have to, but.... Otherwise it's a Velvet-Drive. Jim

[wedelstein]

I have a planatary/gear cluster/cluch. I also have a complete paragon on an old engine. email me at wedelstein0@gmail.com.

[gordo]

My Paragon Saod died the other day. When I pulled the trany the damper plate had disintegrated. Also the teeth on the input shaft had worn away. The rest of the trany was OK. Maybe you just need another damper.

good luck

gordon

[Jim Cozy]

No,the gears are gone and paragon has no replacements. I am swapping to a velvet drive. So, anyone who has done so, how did you  solve the problem off the Walter shaft flange (the adapter or spool in their lines drawings) mating with the larger velvet drive flange? Walter no longer has any and they suggested a local machine shop. Old boats!!!  Gotta love 'em. Jim

[Jim Cozy]

I am posting just to get my flange question back up because I did not see it when I wrote it. Sorry if this is a duplication, but I really need feedback. jim

[Dale Tanski]

Jim,

I can't help you with your flange issue but the economy has collapsed many marine parts suppliers.  Parts companies that were manufacturing parts that were being installed in new boats six months to two years ago, are now out of business.  So... at least with old boats you have a reasonable chance to find a used item, new boats not so much. Also with our low tech boats, making something is much easier than the high tech items manufactured today.

Dale

[INCOMMUNICADO]

Jim, if you think it will help I will take pics of my velva drive and flange area and post them.I think the flange is a standard marine part.Your Perkins dealer may cary them because they matched 4-108 to Borgs.Let me know Allen

[Jim Cozy]

For those of you interested, here is my tranny swap story. When the SAOD crunched last fall (2012), I pulled it and took it to Great Lakes Power, who own Paragon. To remove the tranny, you must telescope the shaft between it and the v-drive.



Soak it for a couple of days in PB Blaster or equivalent and then probably use a mallet to start it. I then took it out and cleaned it up and got new seals from Walter for the V-drive end, again maybe not absolutely necessary but 33 years old and easily accessible at this point.



They couldn't find parts and I never liked the transmission anyway so I decided to swap to Borg-Warner Velvet Drive 71c, which is a direct bolt in on the W40.



However, it uses a different set of bolt holes (6 tapped holes already in the engine) and bigger bolts. . Turns out the bottom 2 bolts cannot be inserted from the outside and I had to make 2 studs out of 7/16 threaded rod. Could have done all 6 that way but already had the bolts when I discovered the problem.
The old damper plate springs were solid but the splines were worn so I replaced it while it was accessible.



The Velvet Drive is bigger and about twice as heavy as the saod (but not longer) so I had to cut more of the engine bed to fit it.

     

I used a block and tackle from a 4x4 across the companionway to support it while aligning the splined shaft and getting the bolts in.
The Velvet Drive shaft flange is different from the saod, but Walter no longer had the adapter so I had a local machine shop create one.

 



The adapter (shiny donut) worked perfectly and added 1/2 inch to the tranny length. All went in like a breeze.
The VD is hydraulic and requires an oil cooler. This is a 2 inch cylinder about 8-10 inches long. It is spliced into the raw water line running from the v-drive back the port side of the engine to the pump. Two hydraulic lines run from it to the tranny. I got my hydraulic lines from a friend, who owns NAPA stores, but he only had high pressure hose available and it is very stiff. I had to get the lengths exactly right and it was still very difficult to get them attached. I would use lighter hose if I did it again.
The hydraulic tranny uses different pedestal controls, different cable, and different attachment to the tranny.

   

Edson website has all the info on swapping the cables and all the parts needed. I scrounged lots of mine from other sources. Again, while I was at it, I replaced the old throttle cable. We launched the boat and everything worked fine. Total cost $1700.



For a shaft lock, I adapted one of you guys' suggestions. I epoxied hardwood jaws to a pair of vice-grips and drilled to 1-1/8 inch for the shaft.

   

I don't know what might happen in an emergency start situation but I will only clamp with the minimum pressure to stop the shaft and hope for the best.
As you all know, it was not as easy as it reads. There were lots of bleeding knuckles and cursing. After all, it is a sailboat. I left out lots of details that I will gladly share with anyone interested.

[SVJourney]

Nice write up!  Thanx for sharing that with us.

Wayne

[PeteW]

 Jim,

Nice work! I'm doing the same thing right now although different. I've pulled my SA0D and am replacing it with the velvet drive, in my case a 5000A.

I've calculated that I will not need to cut the fiberglass cross brace under the engine because the 5000A has offset and down angle to the output shaft. And my flywheel diameter and bell housing (SAE4) is 16" and sits a bit taller in the weighs.

I will need to adapt the U-joint spool adapter from the 3.5" 3 hole Paragon flange to the 5" 4 hole velvet drive flange like you did. Was your adapter a custom job or does your machinist make these as a standard part that I could purchase.

In my case unbolting the SA0 and bolting up a velvet drive also requires me to flip my  16"  bell housing adapter  ring (3/4" steel plate) over and machine the bell housing recess from the other side. My velvet drive has a 8.125 " ID flange that needs to go in a hole of that size which exists on the backside.  The front side was turned to fit the 8  7/8 dia hole for the SA0 when the boat was re-powered.

In looking at the 108-4 bell housing in you pictures and the Paragon that I pulled from my engine, it would seem that the gearbox mounts flush to the bell housing and is not registered by a flange hole in the bell housing. The shaft could easily be off center by 25 mil in these boats due to slop and misalignment in the 6 bolt holes. Seem like a poor design and might explain why the splines wear out.

I am  also curious why you needed to replace the shift cable and housing. Its just a lever with a cable and a clevis. Seems like it should have worked as it. 

Thanks, Pete

[Jim Cozy]

Pete-  The shop that made my adapter is here in Ashtabula, Ohio: Fargo Machine Company, 440-997-2442. Larry Fargo is very accommodating. He has a high pressure water cutting table and still has the program he wrote for mine. He would also need the part between the tranny and universal to recut the holes in the round end. He suggested you call him. Hope this helps.  Jim

[PeteW]

Jim,
I just realized that my spool adapter and Paragon output flange is a bit different from yours. Mine is 3 bolt, yours looks to be 4 bolt.


And the Paragon SA0 that I pulled out of my boat seems unusual. Not at all compatible with a velvet drive dimensionally.



This gearbox is in working condition and I'm looking to put this one up for sale in the chandlery but not if it been molested.

Pete

[Jim Cozy]

Pete- No, yours does not look different from mine. Fargo redrilled my 3-hole adapter for 4 bolts to better mate with the adapter he built for the Velvet Drive. Also, the VD is higher and wider than the SAOD but not longer. It uses the outer ring of 6 tapped bolt holes, outside the 4-hole ring that the SAOD uses. Also weighs twice as much. Also is a joy to use compared to the SAOD.
Jim