Has anyone had a problems with water in the oil of their v-drive unit? I'm about 800 miles from my boat and I asked the
yard where she's spending the winter to winterize her for me, which they did. But they reported they had found water in
the oil of the v-drive. Anyone got any thoughts on this.
Thanks,
Al Holman
Al,
There are only two ways that water can get into the V-drive that I know of.
The first and probably most common is that water was allowed to rise in the bilge above the input shaft of the V-drive and water enters through a bad shaft seal. Under normal conditions you would not know that the input shaft seal was bad as the lube oil is not under pressure and is only thrown around the inside of the gear box by the spinning of the gears. This happened in my boat. You can change the seal without disassembling the V-drive box itself.
The second way is for the V-drive cooler to leak directly into the gear box. The dome on the cover with the hose connections is a simple water pass through cooling system. The tube carring cooling water is splashed with the lube oil as it flings off of the gears and is cooled. If the tube develops a leak it would fill the gearbox.
I suppose that there is one other way... if you are in real cold water and it is passing through the gearbox I suppose the cooling tube could sweat just like toilet tanks and water pipes do up here in the northern climates in the spring time because the water is so cold. That would be condensation contaminating your lube oil. If only a few drops a season got in there over 30 plus years, that could do the deed. The box never runs hot enough to flash off the water so it would just emulsify with the lube oil.
So now the question is, how much water did they find?
Dale
Thanks for the info, Dale, and the answer to your question is I don't
know how much water they found, nor whether the bilge had filled up, but
I'll be asking.
Again, thanks.
ah
Al,
The item farthest to the right with the brass tube is the top cover with the cooler tube.
(http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s233/dtskibo/Fuel%20Tank/Walter1.jpg)
Dale
I am in the process of buying a 365. The surveyor pointed out that the heat exchanger on the top of the V drive is iron and is subject to corrosion. I wonder if that would lead to your problem in the manner Dale is suggesting.
Mine looks pretty ratty and he suggested that I replace mine before heading offshore - just in case. I wonder if that is the case with yours?
In business, I'm always amazed that when given news of a potential problem; the first rule of crisis management is to get enough like minds together in an effort so as to convince each other that there is no problem. It's human nature and is why this forum is frequently called upon in the hopes that it will provide a similar false sense of well being to boatowners in their darkest hour.
That being said, I think "how much water" is the wrong question to be asking to be asking Al. This forum is loaded with threads on water in the gearbox, water in the motor and water in the V-drive. I'm pretty sure we all agree that a detectable amount of water in any of these places is not good for bearings and that the water needs to be removed and the sooner the better. Its not going to evaporate. Its going to collect in the bottom of the v-drive cause rust and then freeze solid.
My question for Al would be more like, how much do you trust the people who are winterizing your boat? If you trust them and they are not simply looking for work, I would not hesitate to have them flush the v-drive out and put fresh oil in there. Potential problem eliminated.
Consider that to determine how much water is in there, they will have to flush the v-drive anyway. You will be waiting till next season to see if it is an actual problem. But that heat exchanger tube looks like something I would check or replace simply on general principle.
I hope this helps. Pete W.
Pete,
Yes & no. I would agree with your assessment regarding typical business management, their first rule is to get enough like minds together to convince each other there is no problem. There is safety in numbers. This is done because they individually do not know the answer to the problem themselves. Problem solving is typically not done with like minds rather by the rare individual that takes the time, has the knowledge/experience and thinks it through.
The answer to the question "how much water" should indeed lead us to the root cause. Perhaps that question should have been preceded with, when was the last time the oil appearance was checked or oil changed ? This would have helped to established a baseline and if for instance the oil was replaced this past spring, we now know more. If oil has never been changed to the owners knowledge, that must be taken into consideration. If the box is "full" of emulsified oil and water and no one intentionally added the water, the heat exchanger tube is leaking, water filled the keel sump and water entered the gearbox via a defective input shaft seal, or it came in the filler/dipstick that has a defective or missing O-ring. If the oil drip box under the V-drive has ever been full of water the bilge has filled to the level of the V-drive at some point.
The contents of a working gearbox containing water should not be water on the bottom and separated lube oil on top, rather a milky buzzard puss concoction. The less buzzard puss the lesser amount of water contained. A visual of the dipstick would not reveal separated water collected in the bottom of the box.
If it objectively appeared to be only a slight quantity of water mixed in with the lube oil, it could be the condensation theory. I agree the contents should be removed and replaced but not necessarily on the same work order. Unless the root cause is identified, putting fresh oil in will not eliminate the problem, it will only delay its recurrence, and depending on the amount of water and the condition of the lube oil mix the damage may already be done. Refilled and neglected and the damage could get far worse and the repair cost much higher. I suspect that the appearance of water (buzzard puss) was from a visual of the dipstick. I would agree to determine if the individual winterizing your boat was not just looking for work or truly discovered a problem will have to now wait until next season unless they saved the actual oil. Discovering a problem, identifying the problem and rectifying the problem are three distinctly different procedures, and the discovery phase starts with the removed oil.
So far let's assume that they actually discovered a problem. Before simply refilling the gearbox with the proper oil, four bolts will remove the top housing cover. It is now possible to inspect the interior components to determine if they appear rusty. If you can get your hands on the drained oil look for moon dust. Moon dust is the fine glittery flakes off of metallic parts and is a good indication of a current problem getting worse very quickly. If the interior smells like rotting silage, the water has been in the box for an extended period of time. Any of these occurrences would indicate that possible seal damage or bearing damage is likely. The only real way to determine if this is the case is to remove, disassemble and inspect the individual components of the box.
I would disagree with replacing the heat exchanger tube just on principle. Corrosion to the tube both internal or external should be relatively obvious. A crack form improper or a neglected past winterizing could be easily detected by capping and pressurizing the open end.
One last thing, make sure they refill the gearbox with the proper oil. Most mechanics thinking gear box will think 90 weight gear lube. The Walter takes SAE 30.
Dale
What is the most common Vee drive in the Pearson 365....mine looks non complicated....it does not look like the pictures of the Walters I can find on line. I have 193...1978...I have been doing other projects and now I will take a look at the vee drive. One of the great things about this forum....is I read most of the old stuff...but the new postings directs my thoughts and helps me continue to make 193 better.....thanks
The V-Drive you have in your Pearson is an RV-10 configured for Pearson Yachts, cleverly called an RV-10 Pearson Special.... As Dale pointed out they are well designed, straight forward to work on, and dependable.
http://www.sailingseadragon.com/Manuals/Walter_V%20_Drive.pdf
The nice people at Walter keep fantastic records and will tell you everything about your V-drive if you call them with your drive's serial number. There should be a brass plate on the port side of your V-drive with the serial number, model number, and gear ratio.
THE WALTER MACHINE COMPANY, INC.
84-98 Cambridge Avenue
Jersey City, NJ 07307
TEL: 201-656-5654
Garner
This forum continues to impress me with the extent of the knowledge base that is available from its members and just when you think you have seen it all, Dale will produce an exploded view of the component in discusion. But lets get back to the original problem. I'll paraphase.
Your boat is 800 miles away. What are you going to do when you that that 3:00 AM phone call from your boat mechanic?
(My phone has rung at 3:00 AM and it has been my boat mechanic. Claimed he always gets up at 3:00 AM) This is possibly the only area of boat knowledge where Dale has no experience. His boat is always within walking distance and hopefully he will never have to interact with this particular species of mechanic and yard worker that is indigenous to all coastal areas.
I've had to. It can be a frightening and humbling experience. Here's what Ive learned the hard way in these encounters. The last thing you want to do is showcase your a superior knowledge and understanding of the problem that your mechanic has so skillfully brought to your attention. This will not get you a discount on your bill in fact, quite the opposite. Rule of thumb, just play dead. And above all, never tell your boat mechanic how to do the job. You might a well just call him an F-ing idiot to his face. I made this mistake once. Told the travel lift operator not to put the sling around my shaft. I still get crap about that despite the 2 cases of beer I had to leave in the break room.
Best mode of operation is KISS ( keep it simple). Water in the V-drive you say? Your only recourse is to approve the work to change the oil. Nothing else. No detective work. No exploratory surgery. Just pray to God he gets the job done without finding something else. If you can survive this encounter without filing for bankruptcy, I guarantee you will winterize the boat yourself next year. Pete
Also- Some Pearsons such as mine came with a RV-20. I believe the RV-20 is usually only found on Cutters. It is a little larger and more complicated than the RV-10.
I rebuilt mine a few years ago. I had water in the oil and a worn out u-joint. I was able to rebuild and repaint it myself over a weekend. Took about 24 hrs of work all together. New gaskets solved the water intrusion issue. Purrs like a kitten now.
Let me know if anyone needs more information on the RV-20.
Thanks everyone for all your help and insight. As Pete said, this forum is a great compendium of knowledge and experience, as I'm sure anyone using this site recognizes. And, Pete, when I called the yard in Connecticut I was pleased to learn that they had already drained the v-drive and replaced the oil. The note attached to my bill was simply to advise me they had found the water in the oil. Next spring when I'm back on the water I'll have to keep my eye on it. And yes, next fall I'll be doing the winterizing myself, but by then I'll have the boat up here in Canada where I can work on her.
Thanks again,
AH
Ahoy...As I read all the great info here...it reminds and inspires me to do stuff. I am going to check my RV-10 Walters V-drive oil fill and change the oil since I am the new owner of 193. The previous 2 owners I do not not have contact with and the last just does not have any knowledge.
I have read what I could find here and now am searching sources. so far, here is what I am finding.
What does independently mounted mean?
Do I have an oil circulating pump?
http://www.dublerfamily.com/Regina_oceani/Manuals/Drive%20Train%20and%20Fuel%20System/V-Drive/Walter%20V-Drive%20Installation%20and%20Service%20Manual.PDF
After the first 100 hours of operation and every season and/or 500 hours thereafter,
the oil should be changed. See PAGE 4 for recommended oil types (SAE 30 Heavy Duty non detergent) and
capacities. Additionally, on Independently-Mounted V-Drives only (WHAT DOES INDEPENDENTLY MOUNTED MEAN),
the FLEX-JOINT must be re-lubricated (SEE PAGE 4). NOTE: Disregard reference to oil lines and
oil strainers if the V-Drive is not equipped with an oil circulating pump.
- Run engine and V-Drive to warm up oil inside the V-Drive.
Shut engine off and disconnect battery. Remove the drain
plug that is opposite the #43S Oil Strainer on #6B Bottom
Cover and drain oil. Reinstall drain plug (SEE FIG. 11).
- Disconnect the #44-2 Oil Hose attached to the #43S Oil
Strainer (leave elbow on strainer), unscrew the #43S Oil
Strainer from the #6B Bottom Cover, and clean outside
surface of the #43S Oil Strainer.
NOTE: Older models may have a #43F Oil Screen instead of a #43S Oil Strainer. #6B
Bottom Cover must be removed to clean #43F Oil Screen.
- Reinstall the #43S Oil Strainer and reconnect #44-2 Oil Hose.
- Unscrew the two #22 Magnetic Plugs that are located on diagonally opposite lower corners of
the #01C Main Housing (Only 1 on RV-10D). Clean #22 Magnetic Plugs and check to make
sure they are magnetic. Reinstall #22 Magnetic Plugs.
- Refill with proper oil type and capacity found on PAGE 4.
This is my project tomorrow......I am reassured and appreciative of all the input here...thanks....Billy
hi
no you do not have a oil pump,it just means it is seperate from the engine@gearbox.
it is very easy to strip down and rebuild,a complete set of bearings and seals from a bearing supplie company will only be $350-$400
have fun oceanpilgrim
Thanks...hopefully.....changing the oil will be enough
Billy,
I believe that the RV20 has the strainer. My RV10 had no strainer/filter.
Dale
Here is a link to a PDF of the Walter V Drives on the Pearson 323 website.
http://www.pearson323.com/documents/WalterVDrive.pdf (http://www.pearson323.com/documents/WalterVDrive.pdf)
Your right...I just changed the pint...easy...thank you
For what it is worth the Walter V-Drive material posted on the P323 & P424 sites do NOT match the drive aboard Sea Dragon, our 1981 P367.. The body is different and the cooling tube is on the top of my V-drive vs. on the bottom as shown in the material on these sites. The Pearson 424 (Regina Ocean), the 365's big sister, typically came with a version of the RV-20 vs the RV-10 special typically installed in our boats.
The Walter service team informed me that they built a complete unit specifically for Pearson Yacht which is what I have aboard Sea Dragon. If in doubt, you can call Walter with your V-Drive's serial number and they will tell the history of the unit, model number, and provide you with documentation for that model. You may want to verify which unit you have before going too far.
Below are links to two (2) different versions of the RV-10.
http://www.sailingseadragon.com/Manuals/Walter_V%20_Drive.pdf (this is the Pearson Version of the RV-10)
It came with the "driveshaft" and Walter still stocks parts for both the V-Drive and shaft.... This I know as I have just replaced the seals in the V-drive and the U-Joint on the shaft. (Also, I was shamed into painting the shaft and V-drive by Dale's pictures. )
http://www.sailingseadragon.com/Manuals/Vdrive.pdf (this is the standard version of the RV-10)
Good luck,
Garner
Garner....
:D I am still giggling over you admission regarding paint. Perhaps I should post more pictures of the fixed ports!
Garner is correct, mine is also different than the 323 site link. It has I am sure it has to do with the remote mount.
Dale