So, I have been giving a lot of thought to my sails as of late. I consulted with Quantum about some offshore sails. I feel that sails are the biggest purchase that I will ever make for my boat. Since we want to become live aboards and will need reliable sails to move from place to place I was thinking about the kind of material that would best suit our needs. Finally, after going over the finer points of more sail material that I ever thought I would with the guy from Quantum I widdled it down to the old standby "Dacron" and the new girl "Hydranet". I liked the sound of Hydranet because of its durability (resists mildue & tearing) and it is supposed to last longer than Dacron. Does anyone know if this is true?
Replacing all three sails (Genoa, Main, & Mizzen) is not cheap - somewhere in the neighborhood of $10,000-$12,000 before we do any negotiations. This is about twice the price of Dacron. Is it really that much better?
But recently I have begun to think - do I really need to replace all three sails with Hydranet? I mean my spinnaker is made of one material, as is my drifter - why am I dead set on the same material for these other three sails that all have different purposes. Does anyone have suggestions & reasons for using various materials for each sail? Also, what about the cut of the sail (cross cut or tri-radial)?
Thank you in advance for any input.
Welcome to Pandora's box...
Purchasing sails are always a challenge both from the price aspect and the technology aspect. I am not a sailmaker but my son is. As a sailmaker he typically leans towards higher tech cloth and construction. That being said, it is someone elses money and he is young and likes technology. In any arena, substitute the word margin for the word technology.
Being old and cheap has its advantages. Old means that I have been around a while. I have seen the new Mylar, Kevlar, Carbon, Spectra sails be toughted as the greatest and best. All of them have some little item that renders them useless in but a few short years. Kevlar is strong but the laminate around it stretches. Mylar sails delaminate from their fiber base no mater what it is. Carbon sail do not like to luff as it snaps the fibers and it goes on and on. Old means that I still have sails from a boat that I owned that are now 37 years old. In that particular case the "indestructible" fiberglass boat self destructed from sun and laminate breakdown. It was probably that fantastic new technology known as foam core laminate, where the foam broke down over the years and the laminate layers individually could not sustain themselves. The sails by the way have thousands of miles on them and are still good to go.
Cheap means that I seldom spent the big bucks on the lattest and greatest. As an engineer I also have a very conservative outlook. I also realize that you can't get something for nothing and if you want an optimized sail shape for racing it cost money to acheave and its life span is limited at best. I raced for a guy on a J-27 when Kevlar hit the market. He spent the bankroll on a Kevlar main that lasted less than one single season before it became painters dropcloth.
That being said, you are not a racer. Sail shape to you means every time you hoist it looks the same and if you get caught in 40 kts it comes down looking the same. You are not talking leg after leg on a race course rather day after day and month after month. The life of a premo set of racing skins is measured in hours, that is if you do not exceed the number of tacks first, or exceed the wind rating that is stamped on the clew by 2 kts.
It is hard, no almost impossible to beat Dacron. Dollar for dollar it is in my mind the best value for everyday sailing with nothing else close. The darnedest thing is it is also the cheapest. As for cross cut and radial, that one is simple if you go Dacron. Dacron just does not have the fiber strength in both directions to work in a radial cut. If you go Dacron you go cross cut. Hydranet has more strength in both weave directions and this is where they believe they can use it for a radial cut configuration.
As an engineer the concept of the radial cut is excellent... if you need that amount of shape. If it means 1 second a mile off of your finish time it is worth the extra effort and money. For a cruiser, your biggest enemy when it comes to sail maintenance is batten pockets and seams. There are lots more seams in a radial than crosscut. More seams more chances of a let down. There are also lots more pieces left on the loft floor when the sail is completed due to the panel shapes, and this also adds to the cost.
If it were my money. I would buy two sets of Dacron rather than one set of Hydranet.
Good Sailing
Dale
I am 100% with Dale on this one. Simpler and tougher is the way to go for cruising. Jim
I agree too. Dacron is hard to beat for cruising sails. When we had new sails made, we went to 8 oz. dacron and full battens for the main and mizzen. The genoa was built from 7 oz. I can't give a report on them because we kept the main and mizzen put away, saving them for cruising. Now it appears we have sold the boat.
Our new-to-us Prout has a full batten main. What I can tell you about it is that the sail does not luff. Luffing gets the batten pockets pretty quickly. Lots of chafe goes on with each tack. The main on the cat comes around and sets very smoothly and very quietly. No beating and banging. Full battens work well with a stack pack too. Wanda has just built us a new stackpack-it should go on the boat next week along with the new bimini she is working on now.
I agree about both the dacron and the full battens. I put full battens in my new main a few years ago and I'm quite pleased. Dacron is a known tried and true technology, and offers good value. I think value is one of the reasons we're sailing Pearsons. :)
I'm finalizing the details on a new main sail to be built by Hyde Sails in San Diego. Currently the design is 8oz Dacron with standard battens. Double reef points.The sail designer said to they no longer put cars on the boom. The new technology in main sail design which helps the shape I was told. They call it loose foot. I like the price $1425.00. I can be swayed on the full batten thing. Full battens are an extra $200.
Here's the data sheet http://www.hydesails.us/docs/TouringMain.pdf
This one is designed for coastal cruising. But they have other models including 2 ranges of heavier offshore designs. Maybe the touring sail is too light of a duty sail ?
Pete W. Pearson 365 Ketch # 6
I know I'm responding to my own post but here is the last bit of info I needed from the sail maker to make my final decision regarding sail cloth.
Chip over at Hyde sails in San Diego is recommending the 7.3 High Modulus High Aspect Dacron. The finest Dacron sail material out there is Marblehead, and it is the most expensive. However on a Peason 365 Ketch the Main Aspect ration is high, 3.5:1. Marble head will not work in that aspect ratio. It's no sloop.
So I am going with the Voyager line of Main from Hyde Sail, with full battens, loose foot, and the High Modulus High Aspect sail cloth. With the fall sale they have going on right now it comes in under $1800. Looks good to me.
Pete Pearson 365 Ketch hull # 6
These are the prices that I got from Quantum Sails. What do you think? How do they compare to others?
CW 1000 8.62 HA Mizzen W/ SailPack and Mast track $2,254.00
CW 1000 8.62 HA Mainsail W/SailPack and Mast track $4,077.00
CW 1000 8.62 HA Cross Cut Genoa w reef points $2,662.00
V3 Spinnaker AWA 90 - 160 AWS 9 - 20 kts $2,075.00
V0 Drifter Spinnaker AWA 40 - 120 AWS 0-10 kts $2,197.00
Hydra Net 350 Mizzen W/ SailPack and Mast track (1) $2,787.00
Hydra Net 350 Mainsail W/SailPack and Mast track (1) $5,286.00
Hydra Net 350 Cross Cut Genoa w reef points (1) $4,310.00
Seems high but perhaps this is a higher quality main sail than what I bought from Hyde. Although I did upgrade to the High Aspect (HA) Dacron sail material, my material is a little lighter than 8.6 oz. With the 15% discount (fall sale) and no sales tax it came in at $1759 for the main. I'm temped to order a matching mizzen before the sale runs out. I'm getting full battens which add to the cost. The Hyde designers recommend loose foot these days. Is that what Quantum is doing. I was impressed with the 1000 hr life specification from Quantum. Not sure what's in the sail pack?
Pete 365 Hull #6
I just got off the phone with the sail designer. After a long talk about how and where I intend this boat to be used he nixed the 7.3 High Modulus sailcloth. The new mainsail material is 8.88 High Mass Warp Dacron. Its a recently new material design to provide durability to sun exposure. Very important in the tropics. In this cloth the warp yarns run from luff to foot and are heavier or Denier. Warp and fill counts are 400 x 840. Note that the HA 8.6 quoted by Quantum warp x fill yarn counts are 220 x 700 by comparison and the warp is a fine yarn.
If you are going to buy sails I would recommend going to this site and and reading the specs on sail cloth. Regardless of who makes them this is by far the most important decision you need to make.
http://www.challengesailcloth.com/cloth.htm
So when your warp threads burn out in the sun your sail will blow out with vertical tears. Hyde learned this lesson the hard way on the sails they made for the sailing fleet rental boats in SOCAL. Blowouts started happening after 1 year of continuous day sailing. The designer in England also said most of the new sail orders coming from the tropics are specifying High Mass Warp cloth to combat excessive sun exposure.
Incidentally we are specing the 7.33 High Mass Warp for the mizzen. I'll let you know what this does to my cost.
Good luck, Pete W old hull #6
Inline your info on Warp drive from Challenge. I also just got a quote from Hong Kong sailmakers who we ran into in Annapolis and they are quoting half the price of Quantum. What's the deal if it's the same thing? Has anyone used Hong among or know anything about their reputation?
I had a mainsail done by Lee Sailmakers of Hong Kong and have been happy with it. The down side is you need to give them all the measurements, so you need to be real carefull.There is no follow up fitting. I also specified full battens but they don't supply the battens themselves. I had to get those myself and they didn't plan for extra roach until I brought it up.
I had contacted Practical Sailor at the time asking if they had ever reviewed Lee Sails and Dan Spurr told me they get "complaints about damn near everybody",but had none about Lee.
Finalized my main and mizzen design from Hyde. Main is 8.88 oz High Mass Warp Dacron $1767. Full Battens, all supplied. The Mizzen was done in 7.88 oz High Mass Warp, stndrd battens for $702. Hyde will install and fit the sails and make mods in their US shop if anything doesn't fit. Sails are made in the Phillipines and designed in the UK.
Pete