Hello,
My engine didn't start lately, it looks like the battery need more power, (the starter click but the engine don't turn) how many amps do you need and where is the Neg grounded located on the boat.
Thanks if you can give me some light on that.
Francis
A click without enngine turnover is often poor battery contacts. Check for corrosion at battery, starter, and ground lug on engine before trying bigger fixes. Jim
Francis,
Did your starter solenoid click or did your starter engage but the engine will not turn? These are two very different issues. The starter solenoid is the small relay that your starter cable comes from. That clicks loud enough that you would hear it from the cockpit. Once that clicks the starter engages. The starter would be more of a "clunk" and it is the bendix drive gear that you are hearing engaging the teeth on the flywheel.
If the battery is good, connections are good and the starter is engaging but the engine is not turning I am thinking water in the engine that came in from the exhaust system particularly the exhaust elbow. This would not be good. Water in the engine will not compress and the engine will not turn over.
Hope this is not the case.
Dale
I talked with Francis yesterday. It sounds like he was bleeding the fuel system with the raw water seacock open. I will go and have a look when he gets back to the boat. If the engine is flooded, we need to get the water out of it quickly.
We all need to remember to close the seacock when bleeding the fuel system. When you spin the engine with the starter, the raw water pump is pumping, but you have no exhaust gas to push the seawater out of the exhaust system. Remember this is a water lift system. The exhaust gas lifts the water out of the muffler and pushes it out the exhaust port in the transom. If there is no exhaust gas, the water builds up in the exhaust system until it runs downhill back into the engine through an open exhaust valve. The rule I have used is 2 tries. If the engine does not start second try, I close the seacock until it does start. The raw water pump impellor is wet, it won't be damaged by cranking a few times.
This water in the crankcase thing is a scenario that I have seen play out. I was partnered on a Catalina 30 a number of years ago and through some combination of an open seacock and no siphon break in the line that fed the mixer, the Volvo Penta 2002 2 cyl diesel filled up with water. My partner ran it like that for an unknown period of time. After checking the dip stick and finding it covered with a chocolate milkshake substance, I drained the crankcase and showed my partner a sample. I said the engine needed to come out and apart ASAP. My partner saw it otherwise. His plan was to go out there the next weekend and armed with every over the counter "mechanic in a can" engine remedy and with a can of ether proceeded to literally blow up the motor. Here's a picture of one of rods. You can see burnt babbitt everywhere.
(http://www.fileden.com/files/2009/5/3/2428483//brokerod.JPG)
His plan he said was to run it till it blows. His estimate was 5 years. It lasted only 5 minutes.
I ended up rebuilding the motor for the new owners after he abandoned the boat. When the rod broke the motor locked up and that bent the crank. That motor should have come out immediately and for the cost of a new set of bearings it would have been saved for only a little money. I ended up spending $2800 on parts and machine shop services before I put it back together. Nothing good ever comes out of water in the crankcase.
(and don't ever use starting ether on a diesel)
Pete W
Ray,
This leads me to an very good question... how do you (Ray the diesel mechanic) get the water out of a diesel engine? The only way I have ever done it was pull the head. How do you do it?
Dale
To get it out of the crankcase, you drain it out with the oil. Refill it with fresh oil and run it. To get it out of the cylinders, you pull the injectors and start by barring it over. Then you start bumping the starter and build toward spinning it as fast as the starter will turn it. Once you have blown out all you can, put the injectors back in it and get it started. It needs to run awhile (several hours), preferably loaded. You want to generate heat. Monitor the crankcase oil for contamination. There will be water inside the crankcase you could not drain. Stop and change the oil if needed. As the engine runs, the oil heats up, the water flashes to steam and gets carried out through the crankcase breather.
You can dry out an engine this way because you have positive ventilation. The piston rings leak and those gases vent through the crankcase breather carrying the water out with it. It don't work on a gearbox. On a transmission or vee drive you just have to keep changing the oil. Over the years I have done this on quite a few engines. All ran lots of hours afterward. The trick is to be gentle at first with the starter. If you hit it hard with the starter, you can bend a rod.
Ray's approach and emphasis on getting all the water out before running it is spot on. If you run the engine with water in there it will emulsify. Your oil will become mayonnaise like and I'm pretty sure this stuff will clog an oil filter and blow your engine.
As a long ago retired Mercedes Diesel mechanic I still approach all engine problems as a crime scene, yellow tape and all. Since its been now 2 weeks since Francis first reported water in the cylinder I would expect that the water by now has migrated into the crankcase. That being said, first order of business should be an oil survey. Since water is heavier than oil it will collect at the bottom of the pan. So, before even trying to turn the engine over ( you don't want the oil pump to gulp up pure water) put a tube down the dipstick hole and pump it into a jar.
If the water and oil are separated and the oil is not creamy looking your engine may be salvageable without a teardown. To get all the water out you can borrow an idea from the 4x4 off road guys who routinely get water in their motors. The trick is to flush the crankcase with alcohol. Recall from chemistry class that both water and oil will dissolve in alcohol. Rubbing alcohol is already 10% water and is not flammable. Residual alcohol will evaporate at a much lower temp than water. (149 degrees F)
Note: Disconnect the crank breather tube from the intake manifold to prevent these residual alcohol fumes from entering the diesel combustion chamber. This in itself could be catastrophic to a diesel piston.
The issue I have with cooking the water out is that I don't think your engine will get nearly hot enough for that. Water boils at 212F. Any water vapor that hits the rocker cover will condense and run back into the motor. By the time its all said and done you will have rust on the rocker arm assembly. Pete W.
Now we are getting some where! All of this great information. I can only hope I never have to use it any time soon. It will be interesting to see what is up with Francis's engine, and don't forget the CSI tape.
Dale
It is true that water boils at 212, but it will steam at 170 or so. Rule of thumb on Cat engines is that oil temp will be 10-15 degrees higher than coolant temp. The more heat you can generate, the better. Some of it will condense on the valve cover and be "recycled" back into the lube system. But as long as it is steaming, some will be carried out by the crankcase ventilation system. You need to remove all of it you can by other means. Any other means will be faster. But in the end, there will be residual water left under the valve cover, on the sides of the block, ect. You can either disassemble the engine to dry it, or cook it out. I have never heard of using alcohol, but it may work pretty well.
Quote from: PeteW on July 23, 2011, 12:54:01 PM
If the water and oil are separated and the oil is not creamy looking your engine may be salvageable without a teardown. To get all the water out you can borrow an idea from the 4x4 off road guys who routinely get water in their motors. The trick is to flush the crankcase with alcohol. Recall from chemistry class that both water and oil will dissolve in alcohol. Rubbing alcohol is already 10% water and is not flammable. Residual alcohol will evaporate at a much lower temp than water. (149 degrees F)
Alcohol indeed evaporate at a lower temperature than water, thats the hole idea to get whiskey or all the other nice drinks ;D the water will stay at the engine. I drove a Land Rover for more than 20 years and did some serious offroading but submerging a running engine means sudden dead of the beast (water-lock will destroy your crankshaft and more). Water will evaporate if your engine is working temperauur, okay a car engine has a little bit higher working temp but after a while the remaining water will evaporate. It is happening all the time in a engine because when you shut it down condensation will occur and there will be some water in the oil, the next time it will evaporate and leave the engine through the breather.
I was looking around for solvents that are soluble in both water and oil. Alcohol seems the easiest to come by. I also considered Saftey-Kleen although I'm not sure of that. The main idea is to flush and drain with this solvent (alcohol) to dry the water out. It should also clean a little sludge out in the process. Low temp evaporation of whats left behind is merely a bonus. The bulk of the water would have been drained off in the alcohol solution.
If I ever have to dry out a gearbox or V-drive I'm betting that an alcohol flush will work fabulously well.
I already dried out a vee drive in our previous boat. I must have changed the oil 8-10 times and it was not getting any better. I finally pulled the top off and vacuumed it out with an oil changer. THAT'S when I got most of the water.The drain plug is just about useless. It is about 1/4" above the bottom of the gearbox. 2 more changes and I was happy with it.
Well a good many years ago I had a siphon break fail and ended up with a crankcase full of (fresh)water, the engine actually started and I had wildly fluctuating oil pressure as well as oil in the exhaust. I shut it down and pulled the dipstick it was clear water. After 5 or 6 oil and filter changes the oil was no longer milky. That was about 2700 hours ago and I know I was lucky. I replaced the valve on the siphon break with a T that vents at the deck drain.
Thank you Ray, Dale, Pete and all Pearson owners for all the information provided about water in the engine. Fortunately it wasn't the case with mine, I had to replaced the solenoid and ground the Neg terminal with a 2 gage cable on the block engine, Ray gave me a new switch for the battery that also help. It started right away (without starting fluid) and I am thinking of having a close cooling system.
I still have a lot to do but a least I have a running engine now.
Francis