SV Lady Brassey
1977
P365 Sloop #175
Hello everyone,
A technical query:
...
I have a couple of issues on the boat which I would like to enquire from the group. I find that water keeps accumulating in the bilge. It's located in the Pacific Northwest (Southwest in Canada!) , so we got a LOT of rain. But, where is the most likely point of entry? I attempted to use silicon as a stopgap solution around the base of the bowsprit blocks where it seemed to be the most likely culprit. But that didn't help much. I have found in the few places where I can access the deck to hull bolts that indeed there is moisture. So, am I looking at having to redo all those bolts? The thought is a bit overwhelming. Here's another idea. Tell me if it has any validity please.... The teak rail cap at the hull-deck joint in badly in need of varnishing or oiling. I'm thinking I'd prefer the latter. So, if I were to do this (in the Spring-once the rains have stopped) and then ran a bead of Sikaflex on either side at the base, and one along the joint where the two pieces of wood meet, would this seal it?
Another thing that concerns me is the the mast has a low point in the bilge and water persistently collects there submerging the mast step. Since this is a bonded system, could this, in fact cause accelerated corrosion? And why is that area a low point? The shrouds and stays are not particularly taught, although they may have been overly so in the past I suppose.
Optional background read:
I joined this site over a year ago but this is the first posting. I'm living aboard my Pearson 365 sloop here at the end of the Alberni inlet on the West coast of Vancouver island. This is my first boat and for now is primarily my home. But I still hope to acquire the skills and money to outfit her as a passage making cruising boat. There's so much to learn! But that's really the fun of it. So far, the extent of my cruising experience has been a four day passage here from Victoria. I brought along two crew, my brother, and an experienced sailor. It went without a hitch. Though, due to the time of year (late autumn) and schedule (4 days), I have to confess we motored most of it. Sailed out the first gusty day into the middle of the Straits of Juan de Fuca under a double reefed main. I got a little sea sick, but it happens to everybody, right? ....right? On day four we sailed most of the way up the Alberni inlet under spinnaker. Very exciting. The winds up the channel were gusty and we sped along at speeds varying from 2.0-7.5 knots!
I spent seven years teaching English in Korea to earn the money to purchase her. I planned to remain longer in order to outfit her properly. But other matters have called me home. I am a graduate of Fine Arts and so am employing those skills to create art which I plan to sell at various vendors starting in the spring.
Thanks, ~Richard Skipp
Here's the URL for my blog about life on the boat, art, weather, etc.
http://web.me.com/rlskipp/RLSKIPP_Blog/Welcome.html
Richard,
The slight sump under the mast base does collect water and that water does accelerate the corrosion of the steel mast base and the butt end of the aluminum mast is left unchecked. The steel mast base is a design issue and there are many posts regarding replacement on this site.
The water that is collecting in the mast base area is probably coming in from your mast itself. Every exit point and fitting on the spar is a potential leak point. I suspect that your mast boot is more of a culprit. Make sure the boot itself is sealed tightly around the spar where it goes through the deck. You did not mention any water tracking down the spar into your cabin but don't forget to check the "back" side along separation wall to the head. Were the boot is most likely leaking is the sail slot or groove that is along the back side of the spar. Make sure you fill that groove with silicone. Rain water will leak down that groove and not be easily detectable.
The center seal on your cap rail should be caulked however it is doubtful that much water is getting under the cap with the exception of the T-track just forward of the cockpit. Here the heads of the flat head bolts are exposed and run all the way through the teak cap and hull to deck flange. They are the only machine bolts that you will find under the deck flange and will have nuts and washers. Are these the ones that are leaking? The remainder of the fasteners are sheet metal type screws with a point. If it is the machine bolts holding the track down that are leaking, that is good news. You can remove the nuts and remove each screw a half inch or so, probably by simply unscrewing them, put a dab of silicone under the head and rescrewing them and re-tightening them.
Some other areas that I would look into for water to get below are the two ventilation cowls at the stern, one faces forward one faces aft. Remove these (4 screws) and check the seal when the vent tube goes through the deck. Silicone will work here as well using your finger to make a nice fillet against the tube and deck joint.
If your gaskets on your fixed ports is weary from age, water will get in there as well. It will flow down in between the outer cabin wall and the inner cabin wall and eventually find its way to the bilge. If you have a dome light under the deck in your galley a tell tale sign of leakage is water in the glass dome. You can do a temporary fix with silicone both at the glass to aluminum frame joint and frame to cabin side joint. You can buy replacement rubber inserts for your ports from Catalina from their on line store.
Check all of your chain plates for leakage. Silicone around the chainplate to the deck. Check the drain holes from you cockpit sheet cubbie storage compartments for blockage. There is a drain located in the front that exits through a hole into you cockpit locker lid run off grooves. You must lift the cockpit locker lids to see the hole. Run a stick through there and maybe a squirt of a hose. If water lays in the cubbies it can collect and drain via an alternate route to the bilge.
Check you rudder post packing. You will have to crawl into one of you cockpit lockers and you will see a big nut under your steering quadrant. Watch for any dripping at that point. The rudder packing is below the water line and if it is dripping or weeping tighten that nut a bit until it stops. If it doesn't stop replace the packing. Any good marine store will have packing. Also check the posts on this site it was just a topic not too long ago.
If you have a propane locker there is a drain in the bottom of that locker. The drain does two things and both are important reasons that the drain hose is free and clear to the small through hull at the bottom of your transom. The drain allows rain water to go over the side and also direct propane which is heavier than air over the side instead of into your boat. That hose must be free flowing. Make sure a piece of stored gear is not closing it shut.
The emergency tiller access point plate at the rear of your cockpit could also be leaking. It would not hurt to remove the ring and rebid it with a little silicone. Your fuel fill cap base fitting may also be leaking. Same for this fitting. Rebid it to the cockpit floor. Tell tale water will be on the top of you fuel tank if this fitting is leaking.
You have four deck scuppers. The aft two are accessible from the cockpit lockers. Check that the hoses are not rotting. Check that the hose clamps are not rusted through especially on the back side. The easiest way to check this is to undo the clamp and it it loosens great. If it breaks better still. Replace it. On second thought if the scupper hoses are original, replace them all. The mid deck scupper hoses are hidden in your storage lockers. Same drill here just way tougher to get at. You could loose your boat if one of those hoses lets go and you are sailing healed on that side. The water will back up via the through hull and before you know it you have water over you cabin sole. All four of those scupper exits do not have a through hull sea cock because they are above the waterline in normal conditions. Allow 500 gallons in your boat and they are now under your new waterline.
Check your prop shaft packing just like you did your rudder post packing. Water should not drip when the shaft is not turning however it must if you are under power to lubricate the packing. This site has info on adjusting that as well.
You may be getting fresh water leaking in as well from you fresh water tanks, or the filler fitting to the deck as well. Check all of you hoses and hose clamps.
Nothing here is rocket science, just good old fashioned diligence and routine maintenance mixed in with a little experience. The only difference between someone with little experience and lots of experience is the the latter has made lots more of the mistakes. Don't be afraid to crawl under into the bowels of the boat to observe where water is getting in during one of those rains you mentioned.
I suspect that you are leaking a drop here and a drop there but by the end of the day you have a cup full in the boat.
As far as seasickness goes, I have sailed since I have been ten years old and have fed the fish on many occasions. I have a hard time going below in any kind of rough water unless I tell myself it has to be done and suck it up. The longer you are out sailing the better it gets. It is at that point however that you have to hold on to the toilet room stall walls in the restaurant when you return to land.
Good luck, welcome aboard and keep asking questions.
Dale
Richard,
Just got off of your web site. You are a tallented artest indeed and have an eye with a camera. May I suggest that you contact Karen Larson from Good Old Boat. I would think they would be interested in putting some of your photographs in their magazine.
Good sailing... Dale
Thanks a ton Dale for all that INfo!
I'll have some things to do over the next few days! I think the mast is sealed tight, so that's not a suspect really. The step, I believe is fairly new, and an aluminum one. There's closer to an inch of water that accumulates though. I sponge it out into a bucket. Not sure how many liters the bucket is, probably 7 or 8. This is a rain forest here in the Northwest and so we gets days of rain at a time.
I'll be crawling all over the boat in the spring. After I bought the boat I returned to Korea for about seven months and so have only been living aboard since last August. It's great getting to know her, Next step will actually be taking her out sailing!
I'll have lots of questions in the coming weeks, months, years.
Thanks again!
Richard,
Thanks for joining up and for your post, which brings information for all of us to think about.
I've read here and elsewhere that the mast step is subject to serious corrosion and that there is a fix. The previous owner of my 365 Sloop lifted the mast and installed a new step so that the mast is in a shoe of sorts and is raised up from the hull by a couple of inches on a plastic/nylon? base so that water can no longer reach the metal of the mast bottom. It works. This meant that he shortened the mast length the same thickness of the new "bottom" so that no change has taken place in the mast height. It's probably worth doing sometime when you have a chance. I'm not certain about the steps he took but it's all pretty logical.
I too had a puddle around the mast base some months ago. It seemed to occur when I was filling my water tanks. I made a point of filling and filling until there was no more that could be put in. Later, in the owners manual I read that this is a bad idea because the filler pipes may or may not be water tight above a certain level and that pressure from standing water above that level could cause leaking. Since then I've only filled each to the point where I can hear water rising and then I quit. The problem went away. Could this be happening to you?
Anyhow, like Maruska said, keep asking questions. Many of us don't have the years of hands-on that others do and it's a terrific opportunity to save much grief.
Mark-
Thanks Mark for the ideas on the mast step. I think that operation is a bit beyond my resources for the moment. I will watch more closely when I fill the water tanks. I used to lift the settees and open the tank caps and monitor the situation while filling them. But then I got a little smarter and now I time them with an iPod clock.
Still, I have to run them completely empty to do that accurately.
I'll check those hoses too.
Thanks Dale for the kind words regarding my website, photos and drawings. I will look into having them published.
* I should note that I have only intermittent wireless as provided by the marina here. It's amazing that it works at all as I am at least 200 meters from the office and there's a lot of fishing boat masts and electrical gizmos between here and there.
I am really delighted that the Pearson Yacht club exists! For now, as a newbie I'll be using it a lot. But later hope to become a contributor. Owning and living on the boat has been a life-long dream. This morning, despite the chill and fog, I went up into the cockpit and enjoyed my morning coffee watching mergansers swim by. Quite often there are eagles, herons, seals and sea lions as well. And the inlet is renowned for it's very fine salmon fishing. Later in the summer I hope to get out into the Barkley sound where Ling cod and halibut are available.
By the way Dale, I believe that the screws w/ bolts on the T-track are the ones leaking -thanks. And I was planning to re-seat the stanchions this summer as well. I'm making a list of all the things you mentioned and will have a look.
Richard
When I recently moved into my current marina as a live-aboard I found that although there are 2 nearby wi-fi broadcasts I could not get a signal from either that was strong enough so that I could count on the internet and email be available. A buddy who is also a live-aboard sent me the following link. I bought this gizmo and it does what they say. It hasn't made my computer any faster but it has guaranteed that I can always hook up and get a strong signal. I have no financial interest, by the way. Take a look if this seems worthwhile. http://www.wifix10.com/
Mark
Hi,
I checked the water tanks and found water collected in the space in front of both the starboard and port side tanks. More on the port side though. It has nowhere to go once it's found it's way there. So I sopped it all up. On the port side I could see a slick where the water is following the contour of the hull. The hoses all seem to be good. I followed the lines to the junction under the sink in the galley.
Having examined the T-Track bolts from an access panel in the galley, I suspect, as Dale mentions, that these are the most likely the problem. At least partly. On the Starboard side, the water is collecting on top of the tank. So, this could be those same bolts. I've also had to change the Navigation table dome light recently which was badly corroded from water leaking in. The suspects in this case are as Dale also suggest the seals around the fixed port holes.
Thanks Mark for the link to the antennae. I have looked into an antennae before. Possibly the product you use will work for me, but I bought a different one that made similar claims that failed to improve the reception. I just don't know enough about the technology to know what's what with these things.
I should mention again that the climate here is exceptionally wet at this time of year. Days and days of rain at a time. So, if there is a place on earth where these sorts of problems can turn up on this type of boat, this is the place it will happen!
Yesterday we had slushy snow and I cleaned it off a couple of times during the day. This morning I sponged out about two cups of water from around the mast step. The step is in good shape, not the original, and has only some surface corrosion. I'm pretty sure it's an aluminum one. My concern was that in this case, I worry that with it being submerged much of the time, that the bonding system could be transferring low current to it, and working against the intended purpose. I'm fairly certain that it's fresh water, (but I'm not going to taste it to find out!)
By the way, I dug up the original manual for these boats. Would it be of any general use to scan and make up a PDF? It might take me awhile, but I'll be happy to provide this as a resource.
When it is cold outside the complete hull will collect condensation, especial when you live-aboard. The hull is not insulated, i noticed this when i opened the lid of the laundry closet in the toilet area, the hull was all whet in there.
Good point. I think condensation does account for quite a bit of the problem. But I have had some obvious signs of leaking around the fixed ports. And I also suspect, as Dale has suggested, that I have some leaking at the through bolts on the T-Track for the jib. So, I will get on to these in the spring. It's still pretty cold here on the West coast of Vancouver island, just had a dump of snow last night.
I also have some dry rot problem at the blocks supporting the bowsprit. This is not the original one and it looks like the wood chosen for the blocks wasn't quite up to the job. Anyway, that's another job to tackle in the spring. I'll be going through Dales' extensive list in the Spring as well.
Thanks!
-Richard
I kept working and working at trying to get my bilge dry and could not figure out where it was coming from. A seep coming from the rudder packing. Once I cured that, I pretty much dried up.