Hello all,
I will be making an offer an a 365 Sloop on Friday morning, but I'd like to ask some help with a couple of items before I go too far. I would really value your experience and if I can buy the boat after inspections you will undoubtedly find me here as a regular.
1. Can someone provide me with a drawing of the hull shape of a 1980 Sloop? I have no idea what is below the water line but think it is a modified fin with skeg hung rudder and encapsulated ballast. I've read here that a boat yard could inadvertently sling it improperly and destroy important gear when the boat is hauled. (Or is this just for the ketch?)
2. The boat is fitted with the Westerbeke 40 and V-drive transmission. I've been told that the v-drives are somewhat unusual, etc. I can see here on the board that all of you are impressively positive about your vessels and that is quite encouraging to me. But the question is whether or not I should only buy the boat knowing in advance that I'll need to re-power in order to feel confident of the engine and tranny when I am halfway around the world a year from now. This is a biggy.
3. What item or items should I and the surveyor be particularly mindful of when inspecting the boat? The owner has shown me the mast step and pointed out that it has been cut down 3" due to corrosion/weakening and thus is now sitting upon a specially fabricated "foot" that prevents any future problems. Is there anything other than this that you can point me at?
The only boat I've owned, and that was some years ago, was an Islander 28 -a fabulous bay boat here on SF Bay. But compared to the P365 in size and complexity she was just a tender babe and so it will be easy for me to overlook important "gotcha's".
Last item is that I believe there are at least a couple of you who sail here on SF Bay and I hope if you read this that you will contact me to chat.
Many thanks, in advance,
Mark
(Bay Sailor)
My understanding is that the hulls are all identical, no matter the rigging style.
One drawing (http://slokat.com/Wind%20Tamer/Pearson_365.html) from the original literature.
The V-drive is in addition to the transmission so that the engine can be placed aft (& facing backwards).
Mark,
The hull on the sloop, ketch, & pilothouse are the same.. The cutter has a different hull configuration. For more details see:
http://www.sailingseadragon.com/Specs.htm
Garner
Slokat and Garner:
Thank you for you help. Since you didn't mention the transmission or V-Drive I'm assuming that neither are a special 'negatives' about the boat. Also, you did not mention any particular items that I should be watchful of during a survey and so I will assume there's nothing pressing in that department either.
I'll let you know how things go. By the way, there is no broker involved. Do you have any tips about handling escrow, lien searches and the like? Perhaps a checklist online somewhere? Any help will be appreciated.
Mark
Mark,
The V-drive was common in the 70's and allowed the engine to be moved out of the saloon and further aft.. The Walter V-drive is still in production and parts are readily available (I just replaced the seals in mine)..
I strongly urge you to make any offer on a boat contingent on a complete survey by a qualified surveyor. No boat is in perfect condition (contrary to what the current owner tells you) and the survey will provide you with an honest report on what you are getting into. And of course, armed with the survey, you can negotiate price or repairs should something serious be uncovered.
Some common problem areas with the 365:
1. Mast step... Make sure the bottom of the mast is in good shape where it rests on its step... If not, this is no big deal (but big dollars). This is an easy fix but it will cost $1,500 to $2,000 plus few days to have it fixed....
2. Bent propeller shaft from improper lifting. Once again easily fixed with a hand full of $100 bills..
3. Fuel tank leak.... The Pearson 365/367 fuel tanks appear to have 25 to 30 year life.. You guessed it, no big deal just more money and time to fix.
4. Last keel damage... The 365 has deep sump in the aft portion of the keel that can be damaged if grounded on rocks or coral.. Of course this can be fixed but it can also be real mess.
5. Water tank blistering and broken baffles. These boats have fiberglass tanks with a standard gelcoat finish that blisters easily if water is left in the tank... The tanks hold 50 gallons of water and the sloshing around in heavy seas takes its toll on the tanks. Not much you can do if this is the case.. There are several discussion on this board on how others addressed the tank issue.
I hope this is helpful.
Garner
Mark,
There are some long posts on what to look out for when you are examining a 365. You've already checked the mast step. If the fuel tank has not been replaced, you should also check under the fuel tank to see if it is leaking. Slip a hand under the front of the tank (between the engine and the tank). Make sure you don't come up with a handful of diesel. The fuel tank can be replaced, but it's nice to know about problems before you buy the boat rather than finding out about them after the check has cleared. Other than that, remember the boat is 30 years old and things will need work. Carefully go through the systems and try to understand what's been done by the previous owners.
I don't know what kind of transmission the boat you are looking at has installed. Many of the original transmission were upgraded to Velvet Drive Hydraulic transmissions. The V-drive can be rebuilt if there are problems. People re-power their Pearsons because of engine issues, not because of problems with the V-drive or the transmission.
Best,
Dirk
Thanks to all. I'll see the boat again in the morning and talk with the seller about a price. Also, I've read extensively here on the forum and I'm amazed at the "feeling" of this one as compared to the two other forums where I read/write. Here, you give each other (and myself) the real value of your experience with this thing or that and it's clear that you intend success for the other guy. It's a great site and a true community.
M
Gentlemen: I made an accepted offer on the 365 sloop I've been looking at. The marine survey is next Wednesday and I'm waiting for a return call from the person I'd like to check out the engine. By the way, the current owner has already replaced the original fuel tank with 2 new ones. Naturally, I'm extremely eager for survey results.
Surveyor typically goes up the rig for an additional $150-. Seems like a good idea to me although he has said he cannot know for sure if the tangs and other components are any better than they look, which also makes sense. With a little luck things will proceed happily.
Mark
Thanks, Gordon, I'll add this last one to the list of things during survey, and will also pay extra for the mast inspection. I don't understand why the surveyor states that he cannot really determine if the tangs and other fittings need replacement. He did say that at the first major haul out, now or during the year, unstep and strip everything in and on the mast and thus reset dependability back to 100%. This I do understand.
As for "chine plates", this is a term I do not know. Is this the same as "chain plates" to attach shrouds?
Last, and not to wear out your hospitality, I don't know exactly how to find Rich's post as you describe.
More thanks, and I hope your weekend is a good one.
MF
Mark, the reason the surveyor cannot tell you much about the chain plates is that to do a good inspection they need to be pulled out. They need to be dye checked for cracks, the bolts need to be inspected or preferably replaced. All this takes too much time for a surveyor to do during a survey. He can do a quick visual on some of them, but there are too many for him to check thoroughly. Most are hidden behind cabinetry. The good news is that you can do all this yourself. Pull them out one at a time, use the halyards for mast support if needed. The dye check is a simple procedure. Get them clean- all paint has to be removed. You spray the chain plate with a degreaser ( I usually use brake cleaner ), Spray on the penetrant and let it soak. Be careful with the penetrant- the only thing it does not stain is air. Wipe the chain plate with a clean rag and spray on the developer. The developer is a spray powder. Any imperfections will tend to hold penetrant and show up as a red line in the developer. Scratches will show up too, so any indications will need to be cleaned up and inspected closely to determine if you are looking at a crack or just a scratch.
We rewired our mast while it was on the ground. There is a track inside the mast for sail slugs. The harness attaches to the slugs and is fed in, usually from the bottom. That is how we did it. Looking back at it, I wish we had used conduit attached to the slugs and left the wiring loose inside the conduit. That way we could use a damaged wire to pull in a replacement wire if needed with the mast up. We did leave a string inside both masts.
One thing we have learned about haulouts- There is not much room between the rudder skeg and the prop. It is very easy for the lift operator to snag the prop and bend the shaft. Last haulout I backed the boat in and used a line on the lift strap to hold the strap back against the rudder skeg. The strap slipped in where it needed to be first try. As the lift operator starts to lift, check to make sure the shaft will turn by hand. If it does not, he has snagged the prop and needs to reset the sling.
Let us know how it goes. A lot of us have done some pretty extensive work on our boats. Somebody here can probably answer your questions.
"I lift it from just after the front of the the keel and just before the skeg. "
That is where I have always lifted my boat. The "blueprint" diagram I got with the boat shows that is where Pearson thought it should be lifted. The other sling is in front of the keel. :)
"To my thinking this is a weak spot on the keel as it is hollow inside, in fact I always block the keel only on the forward to mid section of the keel to keep the weight off this area."
Exactly right. When we bought Abracadabra, She had been blocked up at both ends of the keel, and had been sitting in the yard for about a year. The stands had settled, and the keel was cracked on both sides of the bilge. I discovered later that the oil from the bad engine had been drained into the bilge. The "cracks" turned out to be an oil soaked, delaminated mess. The entire bottom of the bilge had to come out.
"I lift it from just after the front of the the keel and just before the skeg. "
That is where we are lifting too. I have found that using a line to hold the strap against the front of the skeg will get the strap in between the prop and skeg easily.
Thanks to all the input. At the haulout the owner will preside of course, and he's been through this at least a few times to paint the bottom. I'll take the cross sectional drawing of the boat with me though to ask if this has been his practice ( "I lift it from just after the front of the the keel and just before the skeg. "). What is it that you do to hold the aft lifting strap up against the curve of the skeg? There isn't a lot of space to be sure you've snuck it in behind the prop. The seller -an extremely decent man, seems to know his boat from stem to stern and so I expect he's been very careful in this regard. By the way, when I scheduled the haul I made a point of saying this hull shape lends itself to damage at the prop/shaft when lifted. Naturally, I was told not to worry, they'd lifted thousands of boats. True enough, but not mine, and between me and the seller there will not be much taken for granted.
By the way, the seller tells me that he is giving me his IBM laptop with all the nav software loaded and set up for his handheld GPS. He seems tremendously generous, for which I am immensely grateful.
Mark
What we do to hold the strap in against the skeg is back the boat in to the lift. This also keeps the roller furler away from the crossmember on the lift. If an interference problem comes up, the running backstays can be slacked easily. We put a line on the lift strap that is going under the stern. Once the strap is above the bottom of the skeg, the strap can be flattened against the front of the skeg by pulling on the line. The strap will then slide up between the skeg and prop without hanging on the prop. Remember to rotate the shaft by hand as soon as the strap starts to get tension on it just to be sure it has not snagged the prop. This method has worked well for us.
Will do. Thanks.
Hey fellas,
I've had to cancel my purchase of the 365 sloop you've all helped with. My engine surveyor reports around $6k in repairs and maintenance, which includes a valve job. He then shared his report with one of the best mechanics in the area -both of whom were recommended by 3 different people- and he says that even with the immediate valve job and injector pump I will always be wondering when the leaky main seal is going to blow thus ruining my engine, or discover that water has been getting by the rings over a period of time. When started cold it blew a large cloud of white smoke which is definitely not a good sign. The valve springs are visibly rusted, the oil cap on top of the valve cover was covered with milky oil. I explained to the seller, who was already making me a wonderful deal on the boat, that I'd happily spend the $6k if anyone could assure me that my engine would be sound over a period of time but neither mechanic nor surveyor will say any such thing. Remarkably, the mechanic actually refused to take my money to do the work. Pretty tough to ignore that kind of advice. There are many other items on the 'do' list that I'd easily do myself but I can't justify the worries about an frying my engine somewhere out in the Pacific, which is where I'm headed. The engine survey was $400-, the marine survey would be $726 with a climb up the mast and then $314 for a noontime "haul and hang" to inspect the hull. I am totally and utterly defeated on this one. Sunk. She was without a doubt the most well kept and desirable boat I have looked at.
Last for now, if anyone hears of an excellent 365 sloop or cutter out here on the west coast please take a minute to let me know. (I'm not looking at ketch's because I'll probably be single handing and its just too much gear to handle and also to maintain).
Mark
We pulled and totally rebuilt our westerbeke when we bought WindTamer last year - cost with crane, water towing, mechanic, machine shop and refit/install was just under $9k.
And engine is like new.
Wife just reminded me that the engine rebuild itself was under $5k, we had to replace other items like cooling system, exhaust, heat exchanger... and the other $ amounts went into dry dock, towing etc. etc.
I should have not taken back my deposit today; that was a mistake. Tomorrow I'll get a price for a complete rebuild. Thanks for the note.
MF
That is why a survey is so important. It is better to be out a few hundred than thousands.
I would not necessairily write off the ketches. I know Ed Houston singlehands often. We are going to lead our main halyard and reefing lines back to the cockpit to make the boat more friendly for singlehanding. Also, the ketch will sail pretty well balanced in a blow on a small jib and the mizzen. The rig is a little more complicated, but there are some advantages to it too.
I sail mine ketch mostly single handed, when things are going wrong is when I have a crew aboard ::). It handles very well as-special when setting sail. first hoist the mizzen and pull in the mizzen sheet it will point upwind by its own then setting the main and last but not least the jib, and this all without touching the autopilot. when tacking Upwind you only have to handle the Jib. Only when you plan to do a jibe its a hand full of work especial these running back-stays. But a good planning will solve also this.
Good luck with finding your lady
Quote from: slokat on August 20, 2010, 01:03:28 AM
We pulled and totally rebuilt our westerbeke when we bought WindTamer last year - cost with crane, water towing, mechanic, machine shop and refit/install was just under $9k.
And engine is like new.
Slokat, thanks for the info. My local Westerbeke/Perkins dealer just quoted "approximately" $10k depending upon what "marine equipment" can stay and what will need to be bought new or rebuilt. I'm checking around for alternatives.
MF
Ok, I must admit I have been following this thread and I just have to add my two cents.
Cent 1) I have purchased a few too many boats according to my wife, but the one thing I have learned is a non-flattering survey is a buyer's best friend. Before kid number 3 & 4 I thought we had enough money to own an F&C 44. One came on to the market in Rockland, Maine for $140k, well above our price point but we went to look her over anyway. I came away from the boat with stars in my eyes and a list of items that needed attention and called the broker. He admitted that he had not looked at the boat but could not believe the boat could have fallen into such condition in the few short years since he had sold her to the current owner. He immediately visited the boat and agreed with my findings and shared a half a dozen other items that he found. He approached the owner and called me back to say the price had just been adjusted down by 20K to $120K. Unfortunately, our target was under $100K.
That was in the fall. In the spring we returned to Rockland for another look. My heart raced once again but $120K was out of reach but I kept in touch with the broker. Another suitor offered the asking price of $120K. This is an important point. Once you meet the asking price, sign the contract and hand the broker a 10% deposit check, (which goes in a drawer until the boat is paid for) the seller is locked in. The smart buyer had two contingencies, a good survey and financing. Financing is the ultimate out. If you in the end do not want the boat, all you have to say that the monthly payment was just too high and you get your deposit check back and walk away. There isn't a boat afloat that a good surveyor can't find something wrong with. Such was the case. The surveyor had a list and a half on this F&C 44, many of the same items the seller already dropped down the $20K on. The bottom line is that the surveyor added up the total on the deficiencies to the tune of $25K. $120K – 25K = $95K. The buyer simply said I was willing to pay your asking price, (signed the contract with the asking price) however the boat now has $25K of problems. I'll still want the boat but at the adjusted price of $95K. The seller faced with the deficiencies in writing by a third party, took the offer and the boat was sold.
I cried, but did learned a valuable lesson. Most buyers counter offer right off the bat, then fill out a contract with that offer. The buyer can reject it right out of the box because it was not the asking price, and it is looked at strictly as a price reduction coming right out of the seller's pocket. A not so flattering survey makes the seller take a more realistic approach and is pure leverage in the buyer's hands.
So, the engine is shot, and there is a, or better still, several avaliable numbers to fix that issue. If the boat you are looking at is $50K and the engine repair/replace is $10K your offer is now $40K. If there are $5K of other items the surveyor found, your are now offering $35K. It is one thing to ask the seller to drop his price $15K because you want the boat cheaper, but is a much better to share the new found knowledge of your survey and say that the boat is in reality worth $15K less then you and the seller thought. Remember, you also end up with a new engine if the offer is accepted. You are not the bad guy, the surveyor is sort of the bad guy and the seller figures he is not the bad guy either because he didn't know.
Cent 2) If you are going to be sailing shorthanded or you are no longer 21 years old, strongly consider the ketch. It would appear that you will be sailing in SF Bay, an area where by most standards it howls. Consider this... The weight of the mainsail of the sloop vs. the weight of a much smaller main in a separate sail bag and mizzen in its separate sail bag when it is time to drag the sails home for the season or repairs. Cranking one big mainsail to the taller masthead, or two smaller sails if indeed you want both up. The sloop has a larger fore triangle, with again bigger, heavier sails. Options in various weather conditions... reefing the sloop rig (tough to do singlehanded) or dousing the mizzen in the safety of the cockpit. Bridge clearance. Options while balancing the sail plan to save the autopilot or your arms. Mainsheet loads. Mounting of a radar dome. Wind generator location.
People say a split rig clutters up the cockpit. Indeed it does! I in my view that is a good thing indeed. In a rough and tumble sea, I am looking for everything and anything to hold on to when exiting the cockpit and moving forward. The ketch has several additional handholds and natural safety harness points while moving forward. The mizzen boom makes a natural cockpit awning support. I have a VHF antenna on each stick, one for everyday use and the mizzen as a backup. I also have a deck light on each. The mizzen deck light illuminates the cockpit, entire cabin top and side decks. This is invaluable while docking at night and buttoning up the sail covers.
If you are a reacher, a mizzen staysail is a wondrous thing. The mizzen boom makes a great life sling hoist as well as a point to lift your dinks outboard. If you anchor often, a set mizzen or a ridding sail will keep the boat from hunting at anchor.
There are some ketches out there (like ours) that came from the factory rigged with an inner forestay and a self tending inner jib. This splits the headsails into two smaller, easier handled packages. The self tending clubfoot jib is a nice touch. If nothing else, consider the cutter rig at the very least if not the ketch for you sailing area. A ketch will not go to weather like a sloop, but if you are looking for VMG upwind a P365 in any configuration is not the answer.
Hope all goes well.
Good Sailing... Dale Tanski
You may want to talk to Foley engines for a replacement, they do rebuilds on perkins 4-108s with some claimed improvements. The seller should adjust the price to reflect the rebuild or re power :)