I saw an older thread entitled 'The 365's Achilles keel' and thought I might revive it.
I'm planning on installing a stacked-bilge pump setup (1500-2000gph above an 800gph).
Anyway, I noticed that a couple of you guys were considering filling in the bilge with concrete or epoxy.
I was thinking maybe lead (dive weights, scrap...etc.) and polyester resin (a little cheaper than epoxy) with occasional weaves of glass, to encapsulate and integrate it with the keel.
Concrete seems like a very simple solution although I'm concerned about compatability with the glass hull i.e. developing stress cracks. Also the thought of a rollover with a couple hundred pounds of loose concrete doesn't sound appealing either.
Has anyone done either of these?...something else?...any thoughts?
Stew
Has anyone ever actually heard of or experienced a problem with the deep bilge?
Now that I have a stacked bilge pump set up I really have no issues with my, now dry, deep bilge. That is until I drop a tool. Then out comes the magnetic grabber and no problem.
Ron
S/V Matchmaker, Pearson 365 ketch Hull #311
Saint Marks, FL
When we bought our boat, she had been blocked up under the bilge for about a year and was cracked on both sides. I ended up cutting the whole bottom out of the bilge and rebuilding it.
In my opinion, what cracked the boat was the blocking, rather than the design of the boat. It should have never been blocked up that way to begin with. What I found as I ground (and ground and ground) out the area was that at the front of the bilge next to the ballast, the fiberglass is about 1 1/2" thick. Toward the rear, there is about 1 1/2" on bottom, some sort of filler material (about 1"), and then another 3/4" or 1" glass on the inside. I built it all back up with roving and mat. From what I saw, it would take a hell of an impact to break that area. Usually when you break a fiberglass hull what you get is a crack, rather than a hole. If the bottom gets cracked, it is still cracked, just the filler may slow down the leak. It will still have to be repaired. If I was going to partially fill the bilge it would be to make it easier to retrieve things.
Another possible filler material is lead shot. It is available in I think 20 lb. bags wherever reloading supplies are sold. Mix it with the resin of your choice and pour it in. That would be high density fiberglass?
The magnetic grabber is good, but what works for non-magnetic stuff is a set of mechanical fingers. It is a spring loaded pickup tool. I have both and keep them handy.
Thanks everyone.
Sounds like I should keep what I have, add the stacked bilge, and get a tool grabber.
Thanks again,
Stew
Advantage, might even be reason for this bilge design... if your batteries are out/or some how the bilge pump doesn't come on and you are taking on rainwater, or one of the water tanks leaks, or your prop shaft drips more than it should... can store a whole lot of water before it reaches anything that costs a lot to replace.
Keep the deep bilge but for sure install stacked pumps, its good insurance and in the scheme of things very cheap insurance at that.
Ed
S/V Moonlight Mile #110.
Yep. It's a good thing.
Finally made it out to my boat so I could take some pictures of my bilge pump set-up. I've got five ways to get water out of my bilge:
1. Jabsco parmax pump mounted under the battery box in the port cockpit locker. 3/4 line plumbed to the stack with a flat screened pickup that sits on the bottom of the bilge and will get the all but about the last 1/4 inch of water out of the bilge. This is the line on the left-hand side of the stack. There is an inline backflow valve and large groco strainer between the pick-up and the pump. The discharge line from the parmax pump is teed into the 1 1/8 discharge line from the MK 5 manual pump mounted in the cockpit.
2. Rule-mate 1100 electric pump. Mounted on the StarBoard stack.
3. 3-way valve plumbed between raw-water intake and raw-water strainer. This allows the engine raw-water pump to discharge strained bilge water.
4. Whale MK 5 manual hand pump mounted in the cockpit.
5. Portable manual hand pump.
I use the Jabsco pump to clear rain water and seepage. I've been happy with the post made out of StarBoard. It makes it easier to clean the screen on the Rule-mate and to pull the pumps when the boat is winterized on the hard.
For those of you in warmer climates, the pink residue on top of the Rule-mate pump is anti-freeze, since the boat's been in the water this winter. Last few winters weren't so bad, so how bad could this one be --- three major snow storms later, about 45 or so days of ice, and another gale tomorrow ........ Oh well.
(http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o127/eveningebb/DSCN7271.jpg)
(http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o127/eveningebb/DSCN7270.jpg)
I like the 3-way valve on the raw water inlet...definitely going to add that
I'm getting ready to add a stacked bildge pump on OHANA. I've added an air conditioner and drained the condensate into the bildge. The stacked bildge pump will help give me the warm fuzzie that the boat is safe.
I am wondering if it might be ok to drain the new bildge pump( stacked pump ) into the cockpit. I think I need a separate drain from the other pump. If it drained into the cockpit I would know if there was a problem below.
What do you all think of this idea , or should I put it overboard?
Thanks
Jim
Jim,
For what is is worth, I just got done reading the ISAF (International Safety Federation) offshore safety rules for an upcoming overnight event in our area this summer. I remember specifically reading that a bilge pump discharge cannot connect to a cockpit drain. I don't recall it saying anything about dumping in the cockpit, just the drain issue.
On a practical note, the more or less semi-constant pump out of A/C condensate in the cockpit may encourage algae growth. Just thinking out loud.
Dale
Thank you , never thought about algea growth. maybe the condensate should go in a pump similar to a shower sump?
I tapped into one of the deck drain hoses for my secondary/ stacked bilge pump. Those drain out through thru-hulls above the water line. Never tap into a drain/scupper line that terminates below the waterline.
I hauled out last week and my ballast area sounds 'empty' or hollow. anyone know what is or is surpose to be in the 'ballast' ?
Capt Ron
s/v Pow-Mia
on a 365 ketch # 288
Quote from: kevin barber on February 25, 2010, 10:03:07 PM
I tapped into one of the deck drain hoses for my secondary/ stacked bilge pump. Those drain out through thru-hulls above the water line. Never tap into a drain/scupper line that terminates below the waterline.
not a good idea unless you have fitted a non return valve,if you run aground and lay over on your side when you re-float water can come in these ports and fill the bilge up,yours ocean pilgrim
Apparently our bilge repair is strong. We found a sand bar yesterday that ain't supposed to be there. We were doing about 6 kts when we hit. There were 3 pretty hard strikes, then some bumping and grinding. We got the sails off and the engine fired up- It took 2200 rpm to get her to spin around 180 degrees. Every wave was lifting us, so I was sure she would come off. She finally did, with some bumping and thumping. The bottom was pretty firm, I think it was sand. That's enough testing of that area.
I hauled out last week and my ballast area sounds 'empty' or hollow. anyone know what is or is surpose to be in the 'ballast' ?
Capt Ron
s/v Pow-Mia
on a 365 ketch # 288
Ron, I missed this question down there at the bottom of the page.
In our boat papers is the original predelivery survey of our boat. The surveyer heard the hollow sound and made note of voids around the ballast on the survey. Then some letters went back and forth between the owner and Pearson. Pearson's explanation was that the hull was laid up in one mold and the lead was cast in another. The lead was then set in the hull and glassed over. Due to manufacturing tolerances, there could be voids present around the lead ballast. They didn't feel it was a problem. Apparently the owner and surveyer disagreed with that- Pearson agreed to fill the void areas with an epoxy slurry.
So that's what you are probably hearing, there are some voids around the ballast. As far as I know, ours is the only one that has been filled with anything. Evidently Pearson was right- it's not a problem.
My two cents worth.....
I did a stacked bilge also, leading a seperate hose out the stern on a new mushroom. The upper pump on the stack is on an automatic rule switch with the audible alarm. You don't want the alarm sounding every time the lower one kicks in to drain your cooler or A/C condensate overboard, but you want the whole world knowing about it when the upper one goes off. Might even think of hooking it to a car horn mounted inside..... ;D
As far as what is down at the bottom of the bilge, I believe I was the one who brought up concrete, based on what the local marine shop owner was saying. He did it with his, not completely filling the bilge - just bringing it up to within arms reach, and having some extra oomf on the bottom to take the beating if he ever set down on a rock or reef. He pouered the concrete, let it cure, and then epoxy/glassed over the top of that to secure it inside the avity, and keep bilge/oil/whatever from soaking into the concrete which is porous.
This last year in New Zealand, Journeys bilge started leaking out on the ground when we were blocked up on the hardstand. Come to find out there was a crack there that opened up when all the weight of the boat was placed on it. Anyone with a standard bilge would be well advised to NOT let the yard crew block your boat there. It balances and stands well with the blocking under the lead part of the keel only.
So it was a big repair, and we went a long extra mile to make sure that area was bullet proof during the process. What we did:
Repaired the hull to original, then added several layers outside to tie in the repair. After fairing, you have a hard time tell there was a repair done there.
Added many layers of glass on the inside so that the hull in that area is over 2 inches thick.
We looked at the cement option, but wanted the fill to be integral to the structure. The fiberglass guys in Whangarei suggested using vermiculite. (which can be bought at any home and garden store as it is used as a soil additive.(cheap!))with epoxy resin to seal it and bind it together and in place. This was poured in ~2 inch lifts to ensure that nothing got too hot as the resin kicked off. Total lift was about 8 inches. The vermiculite can absorb impact if the hull gets hit hard enough to compromise the 2 inch thick hull.
Then 4 layers of glass cloth on top to finish it off inside.
Bilge paint and reinstall the pumps.
So this gives us a solid structure that is almost a foot thick for very little money. The vermiculite can absorb impact if the hull gets hit hard enough to compromise the 2 inch thick hull. No rock is ever going to compromise the water integrity in this area. No more worries about the deep bilge being a danger. Bonus is that I can now reach and clean my bilge without serious pain.