We were fortunate to be in Baltimore just as the marina was going to throw away the rest of their ice for the season. We gladly took 27 10 lbs. blocks off of their hands. It has lasted just over a month and we need to replenish in Charleston. The rate at which the ice lasts, the warmer weather in our future destination and the availability of ice in the Bahamas has wondering if installing refrigeration would save us money in the next year.
I was wondering what people do with refrigeration and if anyone has an inexpensive system that they would recommend. I am willing to seal off part of our ice box because we never use more than a third of it.
Well Chad...
You can take the easy way...or the Hard way.
We added a AB Super Cold machine (at a cost of about $1000) to THIRD DAY and since we are full time cruisers would NEVER even dream of doing without refridgeration...BUT
and this is a HUGE But. The vast majority of our enegy consumption comes from the AB unit...like 80%, so take that away and we can have a smaller alternator, smaller battery banks, less solar, and run our Honda EU 2000 less. But we never have to worry about ice, infact we can make our own for boat drinks!
My suggestion would be to take the Easy option and buy either a $50 coleman 12v cooler on the cheap...or an engle on the high end! That my friend is the easy solution and one we would make ourselves if we wern't a family of four living/cruising on our P365!
Rich
Currently Anchored in La Paz Mexico
Phantom has the AB Cold Machine installed in 2004 that works well. We also have a Waeco Coolmatic 25qt. refrigerator/freezer that we occasionally use. By far, refrigeration is our greatest electricity use, but we prefer this to loading the box with ice.
How many Ah are you guys using with the AB cold machine in the warm weather? We have an Air Breeze wind gen and a 400 Ah house bank. I am hoping that might get us close to the power requirements. Right now the AB cold machine or super cold machine seems like the most economical system for a permanent installation.
Thanks,
Chad
Currently in Charleston S.C. (trying to get south quickly)
Yes to all of the above.
I would recommend going to http://www.rparts.com/ and give them a look. I designed and built my own system. I do have refrigeration experience, but their diy manual is excellent. The only installation problems that I had, were over confidence issues by not checking the things that I knew (and they told you to) had to be checked. I had a leak on one joint that I should have checked BEFORE I wrapped it in insulation and buried it in the cabinetry. It was such a small leak that it took weeks of running before the pressure bled off and the system stopped working. It took far more skill and determination to fix that one leak than it took to install the entire system. Someone reading following the manual would not have overlooked my errors.
When you build a system from scratch you install all of the service fittings, site glass and filters that commercial systems skimp on. You typically end up with a far better system component wise.
We love our system except it is tooooo cold even on the warmest setting. If an item is near the coil it freezes. I am a "When in doubt build it stout" kind of guy and this system is a real workhorse at a fraction of the cost of an out of the box unit. We do not have a power issue, as we are on shore power, so the box is down to temperature when we cast off. Lots of power is used to get the box and goodies down to temperature.
If you are particular on how you put it together it will work. One last advantage, if you build it yourself and something goes wrong, you should/will be able to fix it. Think it over.
Good Sailing... Dale Tanski
No one mentioned a engine driven compressor. mine, self installed, will refreeze the 3 holding plates in 1 hour a day. About 2/3 a gallon of diesel a day, and free if underway, This is the max run time in the hottest climates. Cold beer and ice with No drain on the altenator or batteries.
Sandy
Happy Thanksgiving! and thanks for all the replies.
I don't think I am going to be looking at the engine driven system just because we plan on staying on an anchor for a while.
The Rparts prices looked great, but the required tools were extensive. I don't have a vacuum pump, CO2 tank with regulator, leak detector or a gauge set. Are these all really necessary?
What is the major difference in the difficulty of installation between buying an AB cold machine unit and a DIY kit from Rparts?
Thanks,
Chad
We never installed the water cooled option on our super cold machine and find that in "warm climates" our unit runs anywhere from 60% to 80% of the time! So a little quick math and you can see the AH just sucked out of the battery bank at 80AH/Day on the low end up to 106AH on the high end. So if you have a 400AH bank, (and you only really have 200AH available to use to not drain below 50%) you will be using HALF of your battery capacity PER DAY just to run your Fridge.
Chad,
Vacuum pump – absolutely necessary to draw down the system prior to charging with Freon. You place the system under a vacuum for several hours to "boil" off any water vapor (moisture) trapped in the system. Water boils at room temperature under a high vacuum. I suspect you could rent one of these.
CO2 tank w/regulator – The best way to check for a system leak is to pressurize the system with an inert gas prior to charging with Freon. Nitrogen is the most common but CO2 will work just as good. You also could use compressed air in a pinch, however moisture migrates in with the air. Moisture (water vapor) is the kiss of death for a refrigeration system as it will form ice on the internal control orifices and disrupts Freon flow. You need to put the system under normal operating pressure which will be over 100 psi..
Leak detector – there are leak detectors that "sniff" Freon. They are useful after the system is charged and you suspect a leak. I have been dappling with refrigeration systems for over ten years and I do not own one. Dishwashing detergent in water makes an excellent leak detector when you first pressurize the system. Brush a little on each joint with a disposable brush and if you see bubbles you have a leak. You can also purchase Freon that has dye in it. When you charge your system, and you have a leak it will show when the dye escapes.
Gage set –another absolute necessity. A gage set consists of a high side gage and a low side gage connected to a manifold with control valves. Three hoses are also part of the set. The low pressure hose goes to the low pressure side of the system screwing on to a service fitting. The high pressure side goes to the high side and the hose in the center of the gage manifold goes to your Freon tank. The two gages are designed to tell you the operating pressure and the corresponding temperature it is operating at for a specific number Freon. You are probably going to be using R134. The valves allow the flow of Freon and connection of the desired gage for monitoring. Once you own a set of gage you will use them for life to diagnose refrigeration system problems. They will work on your car, home AC, refrigerator and so on. All small mechanical refrigeration systems operate on the same principles and once you can fix one you should be able to fix most. You could easily sell you gages on Craigslist or E-Bay if you decided to do so after your install, or you could earn cruising kitty money by fixing other peoples systems.
The difference between a premade system and a build from scratch system is huge. Thus the cost difference. An AB system is a snap to install and you need no special tools. You install the evaporator coil in your ice box (high side) and install the condenser with compressor (low side) somewhere in your boat that has good ventilation. Each half comes with a tubing set that has special connectors that screw together and each half of the system is precharged with the proper amount of Freon. The only exciting part is screwing together the fittings QUICKLY.
Dale Tanski
Refrigeration will probably be our next big project. I am leaning toward an A/B Super Cold Machine because I have doubts that I am competent to design a system myself. I guess that when it comes down to it I know just enough about refrigeration to be dangerous. I have a gauge set, can get a vacuum pump, I can do a little basic troubleshooting. I would really like to build a system like Dale did, but...
My biggest concern is that I would end up with a bunch of mismatched parts that won't work together.
Dale, it sounds like you could install a partition and end up with a deep freeze and refrigerator, which is what I want.
I guess I am going to have to bite on this. The more I look at it, the more doable it looks. I ordered Nigel Calder's book "Refrigeration For Pleasure Boats". I am going to do some study and decide if I want to build a system or buy one. I worked up a tentative parts list, and it looks like you can save quite a bit over an A/B system. Either way, the book will be good to have on board.
Thanks for the reply Rich and Dale. I can confidently say that I will not be able to install a DIY kit anytime soon. Renting or buying those tools would also offset the savings. Right now we are planning on testing how much ice we use in a warmer climate then reevaluating an AB system.
Still looking at what is available- I am kind of intrigued by the Frigoboat keel cooled systems. It looks like the best of both worlds- watercooling without a water pump or plumbing. The only moving part is the compressor. You do have to haul the boat to install it but if you do a bottom job at the same time, that offsets some of the haulout cost. It looks like we could go with the very large stainless freezer evaporator (bent to fit) and make a spillover system. The stainless evaporators are a little less efficient than aluminum, but more durable than aluminum. As long as you bond the keel cooler, there should'nt be any corrosion issues. They come precharged with 134A, which is cheap and readily available here. Also, their quick connect fittings can be disconnected to change components without losing the refrigerant charge. Does anybody here have any experience with these systems or know anybody that has one?
Practical Sailor just tested the Capri 35F and ranked it the highest, but it is a smaller capacity air cooled unit. They did say it is extremely well made.
http://great-water.com/pages/Frigoboat/50K-380F-F.htm
I thought I would update this thread for anybody considering adding refrigeration.
We purchased a 2M watercooled kit from Rparts and are in process of installing it now. I have the compressor/condensor unit built and leak tested- It goes in the boat today. It is a fairly impressive system in that it has service valves, a sight glass and a BD-80 compressor. The instruction manual is excellent and very detailed. The manual can be downloaded from their website, which is what I did to see what is involved in building it. We upgraded to the "C" freezer holding plate, which is 13X20 inches. We also got the Carel digital thermostat. I plan to install a divider in the box to make a spillover system. We are expecting to cycle the holding plate between 0 and -10 degrees, so it should be a fairly robust system. The power module on the compressor is jumpered so that the compressor runs on low speed only. Expected power consumption is about 7 amps with a hot box, then dropping as the box cools down. I would like to see it cycle on for about an hour, then off for 3-4 hours with a cold box. We'll see how it works out.
Just a few questions on your installation:
Where will you mount the compressor?
What have you done to the box -- have you added any insulation?
Did you fill in the low part of the box?
Will you be adding a separate hatch for the freezer?
Thanks for all the information.
We built a shelf for the compressor/condensor unit at the back of the port cockpit locker. The refrigerant lines run behind the stove liner straight into the box (Thanks Dale). The holding plate is mounted on the inboard end of the box. Unfortunately, that makes the most accessable part of the box the freezer. We may add another hatch for the fridge, but that's a wait and see. We did not add any insulation to the box or make any changes to it. I did get some gasket material for the hatch to try to slow heat leakage there. I may add some foam under the bottom of the box later. I am looking at the hatch- My first thought was to eliminate the hinge, foam and fiberglass the hinge area. That would open too big a hole every time the box is opened. I think I am going to try to make some sort of flexible barrier (maybe a sheet of rubber) across that area to cut down leaks, but still allow opening either side.
I was offshore last week, so I got back on it yesterday and finished up the connections to the holding plate. We got the pump installed and the water supply hose in today. All of the refrigerant lines are in and finished except for insulation. The last thing we did today was pull vacuum on the system for a leak test. I'll check the gauges in the morning to see what we have. Tomorrow will be the discharge cooling water and start wiring it up. I hope to have it up and running before I go back to work Tuesday.
We are in the habit of closing the seacocks except the cockpit drains when we leave the
boat. We are getting cooling water from the forward thruhull. I teed into the hose from the seacock and then installed a block valve downstream in the original line. That valve is there to isolate the rest of the boat when we have the reefer running and are not aboard. Only the reefer will have water.
Great! This project is high on my to-do list, so your thoughts help. I look forward to hearing how it works, once you get it up and running. Thanks for the info.
Startup was today. I had an issue getting power for the Carel t'stat. I'm going to have to pick their brains about that. I finally jumped power to it, flipped the switch and the compressor fired up. I think I got it fully charged, the holding plate was getting COLD! as the temp dropped, I was watching the sight glass and would give it a toot of refrigerant as needed. After 2 1/2-3 hours, the sight glass was staying full. I went out to check it and the head pressure was going through the roof! The cooling pump had decided to take the day off. I shut it down. I played with the pump a little and it is dead. So- now I need to get the pump swapped out before I can do anything else.
Changed out the pump yesterday, moved the t'stat probe and got it going again. I didn't time it, but after 5-6 hours, the plate was down to 0.8 degrees. We have a mechanical thermometer that will be the fridge thermometer. The sensing bulb was laying on the bottom of the box in about the middle. It was down to 20 degrees. We had tested that thermometer in some ice water and it appears to be accurate. I have not yet built the partition. At 0.8 degrees plate temp, it appeared that the expansion valve shut off and caused the high side pressure to climb to the setpoint of the high pressure switch, which shut the system down. It repeated this 3 times, then I turned it off.
So- we are getting close. It should pull the plate down to -10, then cycle between there and 0 degrees. I am going to try moving the expansion valve sensing bulb a little today and get started on the partition. I think with a little tweaking and tuning it's going to be OK. It was pulling 7 amps at 0.8 degrees.
The roughed out partition is temporarily installed. It is 2" foam. I had to use 2 pieces to make it, so it has a seam down the middle. I wanted to actually see it work before I cover it with formica, so I had to try to seal it somehow, but leave it moveable. The solution was simple after a little thought. I ran a strip of food cling wrap from the top on one side, down to the bottom, across the bottom to the top on the other side and taped it. I put the partition in place with the cling wrap between it and the icebox, then foamed it. It worked great. After the foam cured, I removed the partition and peeled the cling wrap off it. So now the partition is custom fitted and can be moved somewhat to find the best position for it.
I got the holding plate down to -10 degrees last night and the fridge was 40 degrees. The unit shut down and then immediately restarted at -9.9 degrees. Looks like I need to go through the thermostat programming and check the turn on temp. I want to see it cycle several times before I modify or move the partition. I suspect that the fridge temp is going to come down a little more when we are able to hold the freezer temp down. Once the partition is finalized, I will pull it out, remove the excess foam, cover it with formica, then fix it in place with silicone.
Your installation sounds very much like an updated version of my Grunert system, I have the Pilothouse so the configuration is a bit different, but a couple of things to consider. There is a slot at the top of the divider to let the warm air from the fridge circulate back into the freezer, but I found items at the bottom of the fridge will tend to freeze so I added a small computer processor fan (about 1.5") that runs all the time to circulate the air in the fridge side. Pop or lettuce will still freeze when left near the bottom but it does help move air in the box and keep the temperature more even. It takes a lot more energy to make ice than to just keep it frozen so the ice trays go in low next to the holding plates...and sometimes ice cream next to the ice! Enjoy!
I have been chasing my tail with long runtime and short downtime. The unit would run 1 1/2 hours pulling the plate down from 0 to -10 degrees, then cycle off for 15 minutes. I was horrified at the power consumption numbers. Today I pulled the plate down to -10 and let the unit shut down. I lifted one of the thermostat wires off the unit so I could use the digital thermostat and it could not restart the unit. I was convinced I had a refrigerator plate in a freezer application. I timed the plate at each degree as the temp came up. What I found is that the plate solution is mixed to work between 10 and 0 degrees, not 0 and -10 like I thought. Dumb mistake- I have spent a lot of time chasing this down. The upside is that it is going to pull the plate down rapidly and then stay off for quite a while. I'll reprogram the thermostat and get some more numbers next week. I'm sure they are going to look a LOT better.
I'm curious as to where your thermostat bulb is mounted, sounds like an awful long run time to pull down 10 degrees.
It is mounted right at the outlet from the plate, 2 o'clock position and insulated. The thermometer probe is on the side of the plate about halfway down and insulated from the box.
I think if we run it between 0 and 10 degrees we are going to have much shorter runtime. My melting time test I ran Sunday showed that from -10 to 0 degrees it was 1-2 minutes from one degree to the next. From 0- 10 degrees, it was 12-16 minutes. So the plate temp rose 10 degrees in 15 minutes because I was trying to work the plate in the wrong temp range.
Ray,
Damn that phase change! Sounds like you ate almost there. Just a bit of fine tuning. Best of luck.
Dale
I have hull #193 1978. I just discarded my Grunert refrig unit. I had talked with Grunert and they told me it would take more to fix than replace. I have since lost contact info...duh...question...I kept the cold plate it look good, I want to mate a West Marine unit to it. Is it possible or does anyone have contact info for Grunert?
What compressor does it have? Danfoss BD-50 perhaps or is that what blew in the Grunert? Usually its the controller that goes. I'd be interested in getting a blown controller so I can set up a repair exchange on these in my shop. Need to reverse engineer the schematic and bill of materials . I'll buy from you if you are planning to scrap it.
But can't see it really costing more to fix than replace? Controller is $300 new and goes on with 1 small screw and a 3 pin connector.
Pete W.
In hindsight that old unit is probably a Danfoss BD3 or 2. Danfoss quit making those and for good reasons. In which case your mechanic is right. Will cost you $750 in just parts to replace that with a newer unit. The new Danfoss DC compressor line feature actual 3 phase motors, hence the controller which switches the DC currents. I believe the old compressors were standard DC motors which are unreliable.
To reuse your hold over plate you will need to invest in a vacuum pump and some gauges and stuff. You will need the same reuseable Areoquip quick connects on the condenser that are on the AC100 you plan to buy.($70 from rparts.com) The older connectors were one time piercing connects. In which case you will definitely have to pump the evaporator down and pre-charge it prior to connecting to the new pre-charged condenser unit from West marine. I'm currently doing this on my boat. To do this I put shrader valves on the evaporator side, connected the Areoquips together to pump it down and charge it with 134A. But If you pay someone to do that its going to probably exceed what a whole new system will cost; unless the evaporator connectors are the reusable kind and you feel the system integrity is good. In which case you may end up pumping it down anyway and starting from scratch just to get the any water vapor out and have peace of mind about the system.
I was seeing some perfect sized Isotherm Magnum units on Ebay for $1500. Holdover plates and both halves precharged ready to go. I pulled up a manual on the Grunert system. Very nice. Coaxial water cooled condenser. The smallest one has a 1/4 horsepower compressor which is big . Not Danfoss, maybe Dometic. I think the AC100 system is half that capacity with the BD50. And air cooled too. You might be disapointed. But I have some tips on souping up a BD-50F compressor for 50% more capacity if anyone is interested.
Good luck, Pete W
Wow...Pete,
That info was so far above my head....I have a boat buddy that does refrigeration and he is going to help me. I will have him read your post. Maybe he will understand it better than me. I think you are saying the old cold palte is not worth the trouble. The biggest reason I wanted to use it, was I did not want to climb in the box and remove the old one and it's connecting coppper tubing.
A holdover plate by itself can cost $500 to $800 new depending on size. Add another $80 for the expansion valve attached to it. If you have a friend that can do refrigeration I would first see what kind of deal you can get on a new condenser unit. If the cold plate is good and the tubing and connectors are the right it would be a lot of extra work to pull it all out and replace. Trouble is all the deals for a properly sized system for the pearson (such as the Isotherm Magnum 5303 water cooled with twin BD50's & large holdover $1650 on Ebay) I see include a complete system with the holdover plate.
What did they say was wrong with the Grunert condenser unit? That looks like a high quality heavy duty system that in the end might still be worth repairing. Especially if you have a buddy that does refrigeration.
There is a new Adler Babour CU100 condenser unit on Ebay right now for $865. That looks like a smoking deal. The difference with the Grunert is (and I don't know what your system really is) air cooled condenser vs water cooled and a smaller BD50 compressor. (650 BTU/hr max) So if you sail the tropics this unit may not answer the mail compaired to what you had.
Glad to help. Pete W old hull #6
I have lost the contact info for Grunert....but the company said the unit I had was very expensive to repair, more than replacing and now they admit, it was not a good system to begin with.......probably could not find parts to repair....I have no idea what might have been wrong with it. It just did not work.....90 amp motor just got hot...like it was locked up some how
Quote from: Sta-Sea-Dawn on October 12, 2011, 06:30:39 PM
I have lost the contact info for Grunert....but the company said the unit I had was very expensive to repair, more than replacing and now they admit, it was not a good system to begin with.......probably could not find parts to repair....I have no idea what might have been wrong with it. It just did not work.....90 amp motor just got hot...like it was locked up some how
Okay...I officially have a dilemma....I have removed the old Grunert system but trying to keep the cold plates. I have two in the cave. I have been told that they can be flushed with a clean out kit to remove all of the old coolant. I just do not know what to replace the Grunert with that will cool the big box....Ideas, please.
Quote from: SV THIRD DAY on November 26, 2009, 01:15:20 PM
We never installed the water cooled option on our super cold machine and find that in "warm climates" our unit runs anywhere from 60% to 80% of the time! So a little quick math and you can see the AH just sucked out of the battery bank at 80AH/Day on the low end up to 106AH on the high end. So if you have a 400AH bank, (and you only really have 200AH available to use to not drain below 50%) you will be using HALF of your battery capacity PER DAY just to run your Fridge.
Rich, I am fixin to buy the Adler Barber CU-100 or the CU-200....How important is the water adapt kit for the Cu-200... if I plan on being in the Panama area alot.....The price differnce to start is 750.00 for the Cu-200 and water kit above the CU100.
I am looking at 1200.00 for the CU100....200.00 more for the Cu-200 and 500.00 more for the water kit......thoughts?
It will be either me or me and a mate (wishing)...lol....I lived abaord for 12 years on Pearson 30 with out frig...so...
I'm a little late weighing in on this topic but for what it is worth...
I lived aboard for two years without refrigeration in Annapolis, San Diego and the last six months in the tropics. I can't say that I missed it. Now I am living on Laelia which has refrigeration that doesn't work. I have been debating whether or not to fix it. The more I read this thread, the more I'm inclined not to fix it. I've been crawling through the cockpit lockers doing some wiring and I am astounded at the number of pipes and wires and control boxes that are needed. No wonder it breaks!
I'm probably going to rip it all out. I want cruising to be as simple as possible. Do I hear any offers for my Frigoboat components?
Good comment, Ralph. I read these postings with a wry little smile on my lips. I suppose if your sailing is limited to day or weekend outings and you have a problem getting your wife exited about boat-life, refrigeration would be helpful.
More and more life on board trends towards a duplicate of what is enjoyed in a nice home on land, complete with telephone, computer and air conditioning. In the end the boat is loaded up with masses of systems that depend on electricity. My belief is that when long distance cruising refrigeration, like many of the other conveniences, will end up owning you instead of the other way around.
A nice windfall comes to mind. We were at the dock in Papeete, Tahiti, in 1971, when the New Zealand boat next door started a free give away of thawing steaks, venison, pork loins, lamb chops etc as their freezer had broken down.
Then again - I wasn't born in America and didn't grow up with icebergs in my drinks. I am still asking the stewardess on my flights for one ice cube only.
Carl
Reading the above in the light of day it may come across a bit smug and smart-alecky. If so I apologize. But - really - I am amazed that others find it worth the expense, trouble, time, worry, occupied space in the boat, diesel fuel, diesel wear and tear, noise and stink to run refrigeration when a couple of blocks and bags of ice will last for days - especially if you can add some dry ice to it.
Carl again
Most ports that have commercial fishing boats have ice houses. You can buy 100 lb. blocks or they will chip it and blow it in. The offshore shrimp boats that do not have refrigeration buy tons of ice at a time and have the ice house blow it into their holds through a flexible spout. The dock may look questionable and smell like fish, but the ice equipment is usually squeaky clean. At most docks, it gets washed down several times a day. The fishermen demand it- they pack their groceries in the same ice. You can go alongside the dock and literally fill'er up with the spout at very reasonable cost.