In Preparation for our 4-5yr Cruise we are preparing to install an Adler-Barbour Super Cold Machine (CU200). We are planning on using the Port water tank for the water cooling to prevent the salt water corrosion issue we have heard so much about. Knowing that your 12V system is only as good as you "Box". I am looking on modifying the "Cave" (as Lori and I call it) icebox on our Pearson 365. I would love some thoughts and advice from others that have already danced this dance and learn from their experiences.
Any ideas, thoughts, warnings, success stories, horror stories, or general comments or wishes of Luck (because I will need it)?
Rich asked me to post a short description of how we rebuilt the icebox on our Pearson 424, WHOOSH. This is just one way to skin the cat; perhaps it will be helpful but keep in mind I was going for 'simple, effective and cheap', not the Ultimate Icebox. (Why? You'll see at the end of this post). One basic decision we made was not to remove the countertop. It was in good shape and so the assumption we started with was that we would rebuild the box from inside. A second decision I made, as I wasn't sure how well the rebuild would look and function, was that the original box with its gelcoat finish would remain unaltered. Additionally, I chose to add the additional insulation in a way that would make it possible to restore the original box; it's totally removeable. The reason for this was that my icebox was ~9 cu ft and I was shrinking it down to ~4.5-5 cu ft since we knew we were headed for warm waters. Perhaps the next owner would want a bigger box at the cost of 'spending' more amps than I was willing to do, so I was trying to save him/her that option.
The 424 and 365 galley layouts are quite similar and the icebox location and size are almost identical. You may not think about it this way but one description of your icebox could be that it is heated on 3 of its 6 sides: by the sun on the port hull, by the oven, and by the water in which the hull floats (very nearby the bottom of the icebox). I kept that in mind when adding insulation.
Step 1 was to add isocyanurate (closed cell) foam. I found 1" double foil backed exterior 4x8' foam sheets at Home Depot; it was very inexpensive with a good R rating. I incrementally cut and added slabs of this foam to each interior box side in turn, staggering the corner overlaps where the slabs met (which defeats migration of cold) and attaching each piece with a few squirts of silicone sealant. We started with ~2" of foam all around except the top of the box (underneath the counter) which had none. I chose to end up with 8" against the port hull (hardest area to reach), 6" on the bottom (2nd hardest area for my wife to reach) and 4" everywhere else except 2" on the top. (I should add that I read a few articles on rebuilding an icebox before I started, which was very useful. You might want to do the same). You want these slabs to 'press fit' in place so cut them a tad oversized. This is an easier, quicker step than it might sound like.
Step 1.5 depends on what cooling source you will be installing. If it's a small evaporator box, you may choose to skip this step. In our case, we were going to hang a large holding plate on one of the new box walls, and so I had to firmly attach some sections of wood to the box liner where the holding plate fasteners were going to go. The wood ended up being flush with the inside surface of the foam. Key point: you need to know what hardware you will cool the box with before passing this step.
Step 2 was to add a vapor barrier, an important step which will help keep condensed mositure out of your foam. (The moisture may not be able to enter the foam but it can accummulate inside the foil covers and inbetween each foam sheet...and any that accummulates will then be an additional heat sink). I ended up buying a paint drop sheet of 6 mils thickness and tried to line the new, smaller, foam lined box interior with this plastic sheet with as few cuts ("leaks") in the plastic sheet as possible. I applied ducting tape everywhere the sheet was overlapped. If I were to pour water into the icebox at that point, there would be leaks...but they would be few & very slow which was the best I could hope for. (If you doubt this step serves a purpose, you will be VERY surprised when you next bend over and work inside this plastic-lined box. It has instantly become a real sweat box, proving its value as a vapor barrier).
Step 3 was to finish out the interior of the box; it had to be shiny, white, easily cleaned and attractive. I ended up choosing a 4x8' sheet of PVC sheet (a plastics supplier will have this) which is easily cut with a jigsaw or skill saw. I cut each 'wall' out of the PVC sheet and bedded all the joints with Lifecaulk in hopes that would make them watertight. (I ended up with PVC sheet scrap that I've used for so many other projects that I went back for another 4x8' sheet!) I attached each wall section to the plastic-lined foam with Liquid Nails adhesive. This will get you 90% there but you still have a lot of exposed joints where two PVC sheets come together. A nice coincidence is that DIY stores like Lowe's and HD offer cheap, white interior wall siding trim that is made out of PVC. I cut individual lengths of PVC trim moulding to cover the joints and attached them with PVC cement. Again, very easy.
Finishing touches: I screwed in two wooden cleats on the forward and aft walls of the icebox, well outboard on that awkward-to-reach port side These cleats lay at an angle and they accept a small section of PVC which lies on top of them. This created a shelf furthest away from the holding plate, which is a good place to lay the heads of lettuce and other veggies without them falling to the bottom of the box. Because I installed a holding plate (on the interior or 'starboard' side of the box), I used a machine shop 'brake' and bent up some thin plates of aluminum to form, when pop-riveted together, a freezer box that hangs right up against and on the holding plate. Into this we place things we wish to freeze along with our vertical aluminum icecube trays. (All this metal-to-metal contact really helps the cold transfer). Finally, I chose to keep the icebox drain and so I had to extend a new drain hose up from the existing drain (a small plastic thru-hull fitting) to be flush with the bottom of the new box. I used vinyl tubing to do this but I'm not sure it was worth the effort; we've never used it and leave a cork in it.
So...why did "good enough" turn out, for us, to be good enough? Why were vacuum panels unnecessary? With the box rebuilt and an Isotherm water-cooled 12V holding plate cooling source, I measured a 24 hr amp/hr consumption - in May and June, in St. Pete, FL with 80 degree seawater and 85 degree air temp - of 33 and 35 amp hrs (2 separate trials). Spending a lot more money would not have resulted in a great deal less amp consumption because there's not much consumption to begin with. 8 years later, our compressor failed and we replaced it in 2006 with a new generation Danfoss compressor. We are now down in the 25 amp/hr/day range, due to that new compressor's amazing efficiency. We have ice cubes as big, hard and clear as anyone in the anchorage...so sometimes, 'good enough' is just that.
Sorry for the long post. I'll drop by from time to time if anyone has questions about the niggly details. For us, this has been a great improvement and, I estimate, all for less than $200 in materials.
Jack
WHOOSH, currently wintering in Gzira, Malta
I think I have exact blueprint drawings for the icebox on the boat . I don't know where I got them, but I have something like that. I'll take a look and try scanning them.
We shrunk ours down by cutting out the area where things get lost. If you're looking down into the ice box, the far left bottom, under the removable shelf.
We stacked this area full of R-mat insulation from lowes and then sealed the shelf above it to keep fluids/moisture out. Then we covered the "front side" (the vertical area) with a sheet of starboard, cut it perfectly, and sealed it as well. Shrinks the reefer to a much more managable size.
Hello Folks,
In trying to figure out how to refrigerate our P365 Ketch (OK not the whole boat but that Ice Box is pretty close - 51 inches by 17in.) I came up with another idea to have refrigeration without having to totally refigerate the ICE BOX or cut it up into sections. I am now considering refitting the Dry Box (next to the galley sink - port side) with a Waeco Coolmatic CB-36. This is a self contained refrigeration system that has a Danfoss DB35 compressor that I can mount either under the refrigeration unit or on the side. I believe that the Dry Box can accomodate the Unit (16 in square - with 1.3 cubic foot of refrigeration space) with minor alteration of the drop out panels and the openning. Can anyone figure out where my logic went wrong on this idea?
Thanks
Andy
(//http://www.sailingseadragon.com/images/CutterIceBox.jpg)
All Credit for this GREAT info comes from our good friend Garner on Sea Dragon
Sea Dragon Website Link (//http://www.sailingseadragon.com/Refrigeration.htm)
I just installed an Adler Barbour (waeco) CU-100 (mabe it was the 85?)radiator located on side not top with the largest VD-07 ice box evaperator.
I put the compressor in the cabinet left at the foot of the companionway on a shelf in about the middle that I added. Put a teak intake vent on the galley side and drilled 1 inch diameter holes in the right side removable floor board that accesses the bilge area.
I'm hoping this is enough ventilation without building heat, so far so good. If I had to I could install a small computer type fan but I don't think it will be necessary.
I installed the evaporator horizontally under the left side of the box to the top of the cooler. There's about a 1 inch space between. One problem with this I have found is the condensation is leaving a perimeter sweat on the counter top side. I think insulation between the evaporator and the top of the cooler will prevent that.
Another location to install the evaporator is on the right side vertically (opening up) against the cooler wall just below the shelf.
I chose the left side to cool the deep dark end of the box. My opinion the the right side is the popular side to go in and out of a lot due to the shelf storage. This compressor keeps my entire box at an even 34 degrees while set on 5. There is no need to section the cooler unless your trying to deperately conserve energy.
I have not analyzised my power consumption yet. I will do this once I add a 2nd group 31 house battery and good battery monitor (next project already started)
What do you think?
I just bought a Xantrex Link 20 battery monitor on e-bay for $275.00 brand new in box (about $75.00 less than list). I have heard that this is an excellent monitor that will allow for dual bank (house and starter) monitoring.
Did you go with AGM or Flooded batteries?
I am building my refrigerator and I was amazed at the cost of all the added stuff (3 AGM batteries, new 3 stage regulator, battery monitor and solar panel addition). What was you set up cost?
I knew I was going to need to upgrade the batteries and charger with the addition of the refrigeration.
I built the battery box (minmum cost) $18 matl)
I'm going to pull the stock 6amp battery charger and replace it with the Xantrex True Charge 20 ($340)
I'm adding the Link 20 Battery monitor ($380) but I'll look on e-bay now that I know that is a viable place to find stuff.
All my batteries are flooded now. I can't justify AGM or Gel for the cost.
There's already one wet group 31 battery I'll add the second one for ($140)
I got hit by lightning with my last boat (Endeavour 35) it had Gels and cost me $1000 to replace when they got fried.
That gives my house 210amp hrs but if you apply that 60% rule thats only 126amp/hrs? I'm really not sure here if I'm going to need a 3rd. Until I get it all installed and see what the consumption is.
Question: What is the "3 stage regulator?" do I need one? What does it do.
Any amp hour suggetions from anyone would be highly valued. I'm not going offshore with it for a long time, just 2-4 day local trips.
My last boat was set up by it's previous owner with all the latest stuff including inverter. I could use all the systems on the boat for 24hrs and run the engine at 2k rpm for one hr and charge back up for a another 24 hr cycle. It was sweet. That's the direction I'm taking this one in.
For what it is worth you are welcome to download the "Energy Audit" spreadsheet I used to size the battery bank on Sea Dragon...
Go to http://www.sailingseadragon.com (http://www.sailingseadragon.com)
then select "Projects", click on "Adding a Third Battery", and you will see a link "Download this spreadsheet". Clicking on the link will launch the spreadsheet in a window and you can then do a "save as" to your hard drive. Or, highlight the link, right click the mouse, and select "Save Target as" to choose the file save location for the spreadsheet.
The spreadsheet has been pretty accurate over the last two seasons...
Good luck
Garner
Sea Dragon,
I'm way ahead of you. Did it when I saw it. Slick idea. I've looked over the spread sheet and just have a couple of questions.
The "Recharge Capacity" is your alternator used 2 hours/day = "power Generated. - Correct?
Using my battery bank:
If; Daily amp Hrs = 126 (or 60% of total hrs available (210) )
then my reserve = 84 amp/hrs.
You assume running your engine 2 hrs / day for the added charge to recalculate your actual "Daily Reserve".
Then, as long as you don't go below the house 60% (my case 84ah's) you can figure everything is OK?
I appreciate the help.
Leo,
The "power generated" I think is correct...
It is:
rated output of the Alternator (amps/hr) x hours operated per day x typical efficiency (75%)
I found the 75% efficiency from an article or one of the boat maintenance books I have read. That is why after running our 75 amp/hr alternator for 2 hours we only gain 113 amps instead of the 150 you might expect.
The 75% efficiency is based engine/alternator rpm, energy loss in the system, and the battery's ability to accept a charge. You will find as the battery reaches 90% charge, the ability of the battery to accept amps drops significantly. Thus the reason of 3 stage chargers & regulators, i.e. "trickle charging".
Don Casey has several good books on the topic... However, below is a nice link on battery charging.
http://www.boatus.com/boattech/battchg.htm (http://www.boatus.com/boattech/battchg.htm)
Yes on the stay above 60%. A quick sad story: Last year in an all night sail in heavy winds (very active autopilot), radar, fans, and full instruments, I ran the house bank to about 30%... They never held a charge after that point....
Good Luck
Garner
I have hull 193...it had a grunert unit driven by a 90 amp electric motor. I have discarded it. I have a cold plate that looks good. Can I hook a different unit, maybe an adler barbour to my cold plate? ....Billy
Is it better togo bigger and size up from the 100 to the cu200?
After a season of packing ice the galley crew demanded we put a refrigeration system in before next year. so off we went to the Annapolis Show looking at cold plates etc. and decided on a COOLBLUE, from Technautics Inc.
Having searched the archives I cannot see any information or tips on how to add a second access cover to the ice box between the factory installed one and the port side sliding cabinet. Has anyone installed a second access cover or removed the existing counter top to modify the icebox. I want to keep the cold plate vertical on the starboard side and use the locker facing the starboard side at the end of the ice chest to install the compressor.
any tips on removing the counter top would be appriciated
Ted
Fantasia
#120
Ted,
What you see is what I got when I bought the boat. I finished removing what was left and replaced. Enjoy.
(http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s233/dtskibo/Oct10th002-1.jpg)
Upper lip
(http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s233/dtskibo/Oct10th004.jpg)
With counter top
(http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s233/dtskibo/Oct10th007.jpg)
With counter top removed. There are flat head screws under the formica. You can see the screw holes on the left side nailer strip.
(http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s233/dtskibo/Oct10th008.jpg)
On its way out.
(http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s233/dtskibo/Oct10th011.jpg)
The pit.
(http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s233/dtskibo/Oct10th012.jpg)
Dale
Ted
SV Fantasia
Dale,
Thanks but yikes. Not sure why anyone would want to destroy that insulated tub. Based on what I can glean from your photos; here is why I think the Grumman/Allied engineers knew what they where doing when they designed that box.
Some say its too big, but out here in southern CA all the liveaboard sailors I know fish for tuna. So I say the Pearson designers intended for there to be a big freezer/refrigerator. Alright maybe a little too big for the 365 but we hear the same box went in the 424. Not sure what came from the factory. Was it optionally a big ice chest (explains the size too) or did it come with say that big AC/DC Grunert unit I've seen in some or an engine mounted compressor? So we are talking nothing less than 1500 BTU/HR capacity.
Alot of chatter on this site about beefing up the insulation and what size compressor to install. Much of it seems based on solid theory but nonetheless purely empirical. From Dales photos here is what I calculated:
The stock box looks to have 2" of closed cell foam insulation. I will wing it by saying that gives you an R12. Recall that R= Square feet x Delta Tf X hr/BTU. So the standard box 48 degrees delta /12 x 16 sq feet = 60 BTU/hr heat loss. ( top side not included) Adding 1" of foam (r18) decreases that to 40 BTU/hr loss. What that means is if you put 10 lbs of ice in a pan and place that pan in the box it will melt (1430 BTU) in 23 hrs. An extra inch of foam means it will take 35 hrs to melt. This seems to come very close to reality but think the box actually performs better meaning the real loss number may be less than 60 BTU/hr loss. ( because to delta T is actually much lower) I'm going to conduct this experiment in a controlled environment, meaning I will put the ice on a scale and collect the cold water in a pan below it.
So doing more math, you get almost the same result by simply dividing the box in half with a thermal wall. But we are talking only tens of BTU per hour less loss. If a BD50 pumps 600 BTU/hr this means it will have to run an extra 48 minutes per day to keep up with the beefed up insulation or 1/2 sized box designs. That's about 6 amp hours of extra battery capacity /day at 80 degree outside ambient.
Between all the calculated data I have and the empirical evidence from this blog supports the idea that you will not build a freezer in that box with a single BD50 compressor (CU200). It will at best be a nice refrigerator with a few ice trays. That reduces the delta T and the thermal loss to around 46 BTU/hr in the standard box.
Note: to get the BD 50 up to 600 BTU/he you need a 470 ohm resistor in series with the thermostat to speed up the compressor. You will also need to mount a CPU fan on the controller to keep it from overheating. Current goes from 5 to 7 amps. Twin DB35's or the BD80 would be my minimum choice in DC compressors for an actual freezer unit in the standard Pearson box.
Pete W. Pearson 365 hull#6
Pete,
That tear out was long ago but I remember that the side wall insulation was around 4" thick. The foam is a pour in place polyurethane that has an R value of around 7 to 8 per inch. Say R7 x 4" = R28.
Dale
Dale,
Thanks again. So that means that 48 degrees F delta / r28 X 16 square feet surface area = 27 BTU/hr loss. Makes for a pretty decent ice box as-is. I ignore the top of the box for heat loss in my surface area number, assuming no cold air goes out the top but we know that's not completely true. Should have my home brew BD50 system installed by end of this week. Pete
Wow.all this theory and numbers...questions I have......will the cu200 be enough
I am in the process of starting to mod the countertop and pulled off the fiddles. Basically I have a bare formica top like your picture. My question is: was the formica glued down when you removed the top to the side plywood. Mine does not appear to lift off easily so before I go and break something I might regret I figured I would ask.
Ted,
Yes that High Pressure Laminate was glued down with contact cement. The only possible way you might get it up in one piece is to heat the HPL with a heat gun. The heat will soften the glue and often you can separate it. This method is typically used when old contact cement glue becomes to "dry" and lets go and the surface material is no longer sticking. You heat it up, the glue often becomes soft and sticky again and you can make it stick to reattach the surface material.
Care must be taken not to get the HPL too hot as it will discolor and even bubble. What ever you do, don't catch it on fire as this stuff burns unbelievably enthusiastically well.
You do have a way out of this dilemma however as Formica has a color that matched what was on my boat almost perfectly. What I mean by that is if they touched, you could detect a slight color variation, but a few inches apart and you can not tell the difference. To be fair, two separate sheet with different batch/date numbers will have the same problem. So head to your local mom and pop distributor or the big box outlet and grab some samples to match it up. Formica is less than a couple of bucks a square foot. If you go this route, hail me back and I will give you some advice on how to work with the stuff if needed.
Dale
thanks for the info. Darn I wish I had asked BEFORE I took the fiddles off as I had to drill them out as the screws heads were glued and stripped. My next approach will be to take a cut out type tool and set the depth for 1/2 ' or so and try and match the opening width of the existing cutout.
If that does not work I guess we remove the formica completely and replace it with a wood vernier and upgrade the whole area which is bit more work than I wanted but what the heck boats are just money and labor pits anyway.
Ted
SV "Fantasia"
Quote from: PeteW on October 23, 2011, 08:06:11 PM
Dale,
Thanks again. So that means that 48 degrees F delta / r28 X 16 square feet surface area = 27 BTU/hr loss. Makes for a pretty decent ice box as-is. I ignore the top of the box for heat loss in my surface area number, assuming no cold air goes out the top but we know that's not completely true. Should have my home brew BD50 system installed by end of this week. Pete
Pete....How is the DB50 working out...I am looking att he DB50 Adler Barber with the v53 horizonal evaporator....thoughts?