Pearson 365 and 367

i am working to get my engine original westerbeke) started after a year+ layup.  I replaced all the filters (fuel and oil) before i left and was unable to get it started for the 2 or 3 days i got to work on it.  
since i've been back in ecuador (2 weeks) here is what i've done:  injectors have been cleaned and one of them rebuilt, entire low pressure fuel system inspected and repaired as needed, 12 volt fuel pump installed, new exhaust mixing elbow (had to custom make that sucker down here), heat exchanger cleaning.   I must have bled the engine 150 damn times.  the bilge is full of diesel full by now.  i have fuel all the way to the injectors with still no result.  it turns and turns and turns but just won't fire.   the only thing i have left besides a compression test is the terminals and therefore the wires connected to the "fuel switch" on the injection pump.  they are broken off.  i don't know how long they been that way.  i don't think this would have anything to do with it not firing but the manual is extremely vague on what this switch is.  i jumped the two wires together and gave it a shot and still didn't get anything but i'm hoping somebody can try disconnecting the wires from this switch and starting their engine for me?  If it doesn't fire then this has to be the problem.  if so i need to order one REALLY FAST to get to my crew before he comes down on the 4th of Aug.  everyone down here (well the 4 other guys who speak english) say it sounds like a fuel issue to them.  i agree.  

if this isn't the problem, i'll try wd40 or starter fluid down the intake and if that doesn't work, i gotta call in a mechanic to do a compression test.  

I'm trying to get to French Polynesia!  HELP!

Drew

Question to help understand your syetem:

Do you have an electric solinoid exiting the fuel tank?  I had to remove mine because it failed in the closed position.  If you are getting fuel to the injectors it doesn't sound like this is the problem, however.

If the engine is getting fuel, there should be no electronics to stop it from firing, that't the beauty of a diesel and the negative that the only way to get them to turn off is to cut the fuel.

How is your high pressure fuel pump?  Is it putting out enough prssure to "pop" the injectors?  You may be seeing fuel at the injector inlet hose, but if your fuel pump is not able to get enough pressure to essentially overcome the "pop off valve" function of the injector, well...no go.  I hope it isn't your fuel pump because I just rebuilt mine and it was...well....a project all right!

The WD40 trick will also tell you something about it because if it fires on WD and then dies...well she isn't getting fuel which takes you back to the fuel pump idea.

Good luck Drew...keep us posted and good luck.

nope, no solenoid on the tank.  i had a british chap over to the boat today and in his opinion the injectors had plenty of fuel.  i plan on having the two americans who might know something over to the boat this weekend to take a look.  

if it is the fuel pump, i have no idea whether someone down here will be able to fix it.  there is a good selection of mechanics for the buses and that would be the first place to look but other than that, there is no marine specialist that i know of.  

i checked and double checked that the shutdown lever is functioning correctly.  any other opinions?

The wires on the side of the injector pump basically torn the instruments on when fuel pressure comes up on starting. My wires are basically disconnected since the switch is gone and I power my instruments with a separate on off switch. I would suggest you try the WD40 to see if the engine operates without the injectors.

The Westerbeke is in fact a Perkins 4-107 or 4-108 diesel and is used in a lot of small industrial equipment ( skid steers, forklifts, escavators, etc). The bus mechanics could probably work on the engine. Depending on where you put the electric fuel pump in the system you should be able to remove any air in the filters and the injector pump with just a couple of bleed screws. The one screw is where the fuel switch is that you found broken. Although the electrical may not be a problem there may be an air leak here that could be your problem.

Sea Dragon has a good article on bleeding the big Red and shows these bleed screws. Take a look at Sea Dragons web site, check out the bleed screws, try the WD40, then get an interpeter an a bus mechanic.

Good Luck,

Don Woodruff

My parts counterman shook his head when I purchased my fuel filter. He said the 4-108 was a very difficult engine to bleed...perhaps the most difficult.

In my profession there is a saying "when you hear hoof beats, don't expect zebras".  Usually the malady is something common, not exotic.  I spent two days bleeding that "d***"" 4-108 before it started.  

Good luck

Rich asked me to check in.  

I'd have to agree with trying the WD-40.  One other thing I would check first is the shut down lever on the injector pump.  Make certain that this lever is in the full run position.  More than once I've found this lever only partly open allowing just enough fuel to show up at the injectors but not enough to start a cold engine.  And speaking of a cold engine... if you are trying to start one up in less than 70f conditions, or one has been set up for some time, try aiming a hair dryer at the air intake.  Another good thing to look at while you are at it is to make sure that the screen in that air intake is clean.  A clogged screen in the air intake will effectively shut one of these motors down or keep them from starting.  These motors need to breath well to run.  

Good luck,

George

thanks guys.  yep, i knew about the annoying bleeding process already from filter changes along the way.  that's why i installed the 12v pump inline after the primary to make this process much easier.  now i just turn it on and go from bleed point to bleed point for the low pressure side.  

i'll pull out a heat gun and see if that helps as well.  the intake is clean...actually i've had it off completely during all this time so i know it's not that.  

i'll check the shutdown lever again just to make sure...

i know it's gotta be something so simple that i'm missing

drew

One other thing to do is keep the speed advance in the full speed position while trying to start the engine.  Of course you want to roll it back right away when the engine starts to prevent over rev on the cold engine.  

George

yep, full throttle all the way.  no luck on the wd-40 thing or the heat gun.  looks like i gotta find some professional help.  

Most 410-8s will not run on WD40. Sounds like you have done your due  dillegence on the bleeding. You may have low compressioin from sitting. Try taking the injectors out and putting a shot of Marvel Mystery Oil in each cylinder. Let it sit overnight and turn the engine over with the starter to clear the cylinders before you put the injectors back. I have had many problems with injector shops. You may want to go back and ask them to whitness the pressure they pop at. Sorry I can't tell you thr proper pressure as my manual is at my shop. If you need I can get it for you Monday. You can also connect the fuel line to the injectors without putting them in the cylinders and see if you are getting a spray pattern. Use caution with this though, as the high pressure spray can penetrate your skin and eyes. Use some kind of protection a plexaglass panel works well. Also try using the cold start pre heater on the front side of the air intake. This drips heated fuel into the manafold as you hold the button. It will actually ignite the fuel if you hold it long enough. Hope this is of help.
     S

Have you tried to spin the engine by hand?  Get a wrench on the pulley nut attached to the crank at the front of the engine and see if you can turn it.
Some photos here: viewtopic.php?t=156 (http://www.pearson365.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=156)

Drew,
I have been following this tread very closely and so far the advice you been given is very good.  If you have not started her by now, you may have other issues.  I would suggest that you must determine if the engine will fire period.  Ether will make it fire even with stuck rings or a stuck valve.  I know ether is not recommended for a diesel, but with moderation it will not be a problem.  A shot or two of ether and it will tell you if it will run.  WD 40 works well on an engine that is in good working order or if it is not too cold.  If it does not fire on ether, you may have a mechanical problem or fuel quality issue.  
An engine sitting that long, cooped up, near salt water, if not put up properly could have several mechanical problems.  Your rings could be stuck (rusted) or a valve hung open.  This probably would keep it from firing on straight diesel fuel.  If you can get it to kick, the heat and motion may get the rings to loosen and seal.  If you get lots and lots of smoke, that is a sign the rings are stuck.  If it is a hung valve, you will probably have to remove the rocker cover, spray the upper end down with penetrating oil and gently unstuck the valve that does not move when you turn the engine by hand.  My engine sat for 16 months near fresh water and when I popped the rocker cover to take a look, the upper end and bottom of the cover were all rusty.
The problem could also be bad fuel.  Diesel does go over long periods of time.  A year is usually not an issue unless it is a bio diesel blend.  They also make diesel out of a tree known as the diesel tree in places like Brazil.  I have been told that this diesel is not as stable as petrol based diesel and this could be your problem.  Basically as diesel degrades, the octane lowers and the molecules get larger.  If it fired on ether, I would try running it on some fresh diesel directly out of a can.  If you bleed it out and it runs on fresh diesel, time to dump your tank.
I hope you find your problem, and when you do please let us know.
Good sailing...  Dale Tanski

Drew, It just dawned on me that you said you were not able to start your engine before the layup. I hope you are aware that if you have to crank the engine for any legnth of time without starting you must trrn the saltwater intake valve off or salt water can back up into the exhaust manafold. If this wasen't done when it wouldn't start initionaly you may have ring or valve problems. Have you ever had any problem with water in your fuel? Always use a fuel additive every time you fill. The additive should break down moisture and have a biocide to prevent the growth of fungus. Any water or fungus in the injector pump will cause it to not produce sufficent pressure to pop the injectors.
   S

alright...let's see.  there is a slight problem finding some of the stuff you guys talked about in your suggestions here in ecuador.  i know i'd never find Marvel M. Oil down here and ether isn't very likely as well.  They don't even sell acetone here because of some legal issue.  i have a mechanic coming by tomorrow (HOPEFULLY!) and since i'm convinced it's a fuel problem, i'll make sure that gets through in the translation.  i haven't thought about hooking up an injector while it's out...that's a good idea and i may try that tomorrow before he comes...if he does.  i did use biobore or whatever it's called at my last fill up in Panama City but curiously enough, when i pulled that fuel switch off the pump to look at it, little tiny bits of scummy stuff came out of it leading me to believe there's some contamination in the fuel pump.  is the fuel pump something that can be cleaned or will it call for a total rebuild of some sort?  

as for water in the exhaust manifold, i completely removed the manifold when i replaced the mixing elbow and started fresh with all new coolant/water mix.  the boat isn't in the water and hasn't been the entire time i've been trying to start it including the few days i worked on it last year.  i set up a bucket on risers beneath the intake and run a small hose from the thruhull down into it instead of shoving the actual waterhose up into the intake.  this has worked in the past for me and gave me good flow once i had her started.  

also, i have a double pulley on the crank even though i only use the inside, larger one.  the outside one covers up the nut although it looks like i could get a ratchet in there if i had the space but the fuel tank is in the way.  i'm wondering if i can just take the outside, smaller pulley off to gain access to the actual nut.  there are what looks like 4 small bolts attaching it but i can't tell whether they hold the entire thing on or just the outside pulley.

Drew, 90% of problems with diesels not starting are fuel related. Either the delivery system or the fuel it's self. If any water or dirt reaches the injector pump it's usually cause for rebulding it. If the fuel in your tank is contaminated it will have to be polished. That is agitated and circulated thru a filtration system untill it is clean. Emptying the tank and refilling dosent work as it dosent remove the stuff on the bottom. The injector pump is a hard one to diagnose. The last one I had rebuilt costed around 600. There is a article someware in the threads here showing the removal of the pump. I would be more than willing to have it rebuilt here if you can't find a fuel injection service there.
  Not sure why you want to turn the engine by hand, but you can't do it on the front. If you try to remove the pully, it fits tight on the pully adapter, and you will damage the front oilk seal. Since there is no room for a puller you will have to pry it off. The best way to turn the engine is remove the starter and turn it with a large screw driver.
      S

I just had my fuel pump rebuilt, cost $700 and it was quite a project pulling her out and getting her back in.  The bitch was the bolt UNDER the starter to the right when looking at the pump.  It required a special alan fitting on the end of a long multi-jointed socket to reach that bastard.  

You can rule out bad fuel by rigging a 5 Gal fuel can in replacement of the fuel tank....and then use your electric fuel pump to flush the NEW good fuel through the system pushing out any of the potential shit fuel.  Then fire her up running off of the 5 Gal fuel can....just a thought.

Let us know if we can help line something up if you need it.

well, the mechanic came.  first he loosened the injectors and checked the flow.  all normal.  then he sat there and stared at it for a few.  then he took off for about 15 minutes and came back with a can of american starter fluid.  he pulled the raw water hose off the v-drive and jammed a water hose up there.  then gave it one quick squirt of the starter fluid, turned it over, and it fired right up.  we let it run for about 5 minutes, turned it off, and cranked it right back up without the fluid.  how in the hell?!?  is there that much of a difference between wd40 and starter fluid?  it's the only thing he did differently from what i've been doing for the last two weeks.  i had him leave the can with me!

Ah, the unexplained mysteries of the world.

Shit....I'll be adding a can of starter fluid to THIRD DAY before we cast off.....that's for sure!

Glad to hear you're back in business Drew, now onto the next "Project".

Are we talking charcoal starter fluid, or some kind of engine starter fluid?

Thanks

Spray can of starting fluid.  AKA Ether.  Available at any automotive or boat store.

A couple of things to consider- If it was injecting fuel into the cylinders but would not start, there may be a compression problem. Diesels rely on heat of compression to ignite the fuel charge. Ether ignites at a much lower temperature than diesel fuel, which is why it works so well starting engines in cold climates. It may have have been making enough temp to light the ether, but not the diesel fuel. It also could have been a little air that you could not get rid of until the engine started on the ether. Do be careful with the ether. You can do a lot of damage to your engine with it. Use as little as you can get by with. I have seen rods bent and heads blown off by folks that thought they needed half the can to get started. Having said that, I keep a can on my boat. I have never needed it, but it is there if I ever do need it. The trick is to use it sparingly.

You do know that there are 2 bleed screws on the injection pump. The system must be absolutly clear of air bubbles. Loosen one of the injector feed lines. Use starting fluid spareingly. I little will hemp run the engine while the pump catches. Too much startiing fluid will lock up the engine.

My boat came equipped with an electric fuel prime pump, I don't know much about it yet, but the mechanic that installed my engine said to use it instead of bleeding the injection pump/fuel system.

Don't know much about it, or how it's installed, except that the one time I couldn't get started, flipped the switch for a few seconds until the pressure pump stopped & it started right up after that.