So now that the Streamstay is getting rebuilt, we will ideally soon have a functional roller furler. Which is neat and all, but it's really just a spinny piece of metal. It's not that cool until I put a sail on. To that end, I looked at the initial documentation (and I found some resources here too) since this is the original unit.
Luff | | Leach | Foot |
39' 3 1/2" | | 22' 8" | 36' 7" |
I checked Pineapple Sails, but they didn't have anything that wasn't way too small. Second wind has a bigger selection, but still not quite the correct size. Obviously, I can't go bigger, but I don't want to go that much smaller. For coastal and caribbean cruising is what this would be used for at this moment in time.
Currently off to go get a new Halyard and doing some electrical work. Again, I'll post those details in the appropriate section.
For giggles, send those measurements to Mac Sails in Stuart for a quote on a new sail. Also ask Dale what his loft will make one for.
New sails are better than anything else you can do for sailing performance. Going to the Caribbean from Florida is all upwind and bagged out sails are not the way to point.
Old sails can cost you more than a new set in a big hurry due to restitching and repairs.
Having a sail blow out in the Caribbean can be a real bummer due to lack of lofts. (learn from my misery on that one)
Your new sail will be color matched to your canvas.
If I buy another 365, you can have my head sail. Because I will not leave the states again with used up sails.
Can you tell I have a bias on this? :)
I'll do that, and super sailmakers, just to see. And I know you've sailed a lot in these boats, so I will definitely take your biases into account. :D
Jordan,
I switched from a 150% to a high cut 120% head sail years back. I may still have the old 150% that you can have. It is no gem but it will hold you over and get you out on the water giving you time to look for something better or buy new. If you are interested we will go through the shelves Monday to see what we can find. We also just took in a decent used 150% off of an Islander 34 that just might be a bit short in the hoist but would work. You do have a ketch correct?
If you are staying coastal a 150% would be fine but if you are going to the islands, you would leave that at home and would need a much small hunk of canvas.
Let me know...
Dale
I'm very interested. I've been reading a bit about the high cut Yankees for the headsail. But I'd definitely take the 150%. Before we leave the states (whenever that will be), we are going to be purchasing at least a couple new sails, but something to mess with would be amazing. I went down a rabbit hole about mizzen staysails the last couple of days, and am certain I am currently incapable of picking a sail plan that will work for me, so putting off a purchase like that makes a lot of sense. First I sail! Lol.
Jordan,
We will dig through our sails today and see what we have.
Dale
Quote from: Dale Tanski on August 10, 2020, 10:28:54 AM
Jordan,
We will dig through our sails today and see what we have.
Dale
Awesome Dale, thanks!
What abouts would you guys charge for a decent 120 or 130 high cut yankee? I know that's way general.
I'll post this in the sailing a ketch thread, but thought I'd leave it here, too:
The Benefits of a Ketch Rig (http://features.coastalboating.net/FeatureArticles/IdealBoat/Ketch_Rig/Ketch_Trim.html)
Dug out the 150%, but we have so many repairs on the loft floor right now I didn't want to spread it out yesterday and gum up the works. Besides I was awlgrip painting a boom and wheel for a customer so my day was all used up. Hopefully we can get it out of the bag today to ascertain its condition.
Dale
Awesome Dale. Thanks a lot!
Jordan,
Rolled it out on our loft floor and it is better than I remember it. Needs a slight repair where the leech cord hooked the end of the spreader. We will do that for you and box it up. Send me the address where you would like it sent.
Dale
Very cool! I sent you a PM. Got the drum adjusted, so as far as the main mast is concerned, technically she only missing a spinnaker halyard (which I have, but my spinnaker has a rip we need to fix, so I'm not worried about it just yet) and a headsail.
I'll tell you what...this feels good!! Mizzen rigging is mostly down, and Main rigging is all complete. The triatic stay and one set of shrouds are currently off as far as the mizzen goes. I think the running backstay and the new topping lift are the only things remaining.
The sail is fixed, boxed and should be heading to UPS today. The only issue could be the size of the luff tape on the sail matching the luff grove in your furler extrusion track. This is an issue only very rarely but be aware it could be a problem.
Dale
Jordan,
I know the sail was flaked and boxed, and I didn't see the box when I closed yesterday so I assume it was shipped.
Hope it fits and you can go sailing.
Dale
Sitting on a mooring six miles off the NH coast after a nice dive on my substantially restored 365, I would just like to say it is wonderful to see the support we offer one another. There are some very talented, experienced and generous owners on this site and I want to acknowledge it here and now. A couple years back, I was where Jordan is now, working like a dog to get everything together, safe and ship shape. Without all of the help from the veterans -we all know who you are- I would not be happily out sailing, diving and enjoying my 365. And you will get there Jordan,just keep asking all those questions.
Thank you to everyone that pitches in with contributions, time and effort. It makes the forum one of my go to places for all things 365!
Jim
S/v Walkabout
Jim,
Thanks a lot for that. I always find it pretty useful to be reminded that there is a reason for all this. :)
Quote from: Dale Tanski on August 31, 2020, 07:33:19 AM
I'm thrilled that the luff tape on that sail fit your furler!
That would have been a real bummer if it didn't.
Glad to hear you're a real sailboat.
Enjoy...
Dale
Absolutely!! There are a few tweaks I need to make. The sail you sent has a stainless lanyard (maybe 6-8") on the head of the sail. Also, unless I'm mistaken (which I don't think I am), the sacrificial cloth is on the starboard side of this sail. That meant I had to rig it to furl counter-clockwise instead of clockwise. Between the drum itself, and the fact that my rigger very kindly provided me with a new line, there is some major chafing going on. It seems this boat was rigged specifically for a clockwise furling sail. Not a big deal necessarily, as I just fed the line the other way. But running it back to the cockpit isn't an option until I can mount the block on the port side. I also realized that the bottom of the sail catches on the bowsprit. Honestly, I think I just need to cut the halyard off the head, and recrimp it around the clew of the sail to give me that clearance I need. Also, I realized that with this glorious 150% sail, I actually need thinner line for the roller furler. It damn near gets jammed from the amount of line in there right around the time it's secure.
I did move back the loops on the rail, since I wasn't pulling out the heasail, just pulling it down. This all seems pretty normal, right?
Jordan,
The stainless pendant can be removed. Often sailmakers or owners add pendants to the tack to raise a head sail up off of the deck. Adding the pendant to the tack may solve your problem with your interference with the bowsprit. In this case the pendant may have been added to the head to better align the halyard. Either way you can remove it is if it does not suit your purpose.
The sacrificial sun shield can be installed on either side of the sail when the sail is manufactured. We try and match what the old sail had when we do it. In this case it is what it is, but you were correct reversing the rotation of the drum wind to place the cover on the outside of the sail when furled. We see many customers that install their sun covers on the wrong side not realizing what side goes out especially if the sunshield is white dacron. Typically we discover this when we are asked to install a sail on a boat and get there only to discover the drum winds the sail wrong.
You should be able to run the drum furling line on the side it was on. Sometimes this requires the rotation or repositioning of the opening in the drum to accommodate the rewrapping of the furler line. Typically the furler line is run down the starboard side of the boat.
Most customers when replacing a furler line typically do so with a larger diameter line. This stems from two reasons. Bigger is easier on the hands and as line gets older each little strand tends to fluff up as it rubs against the next strand (wear). As the line dies and gets fluffier the outside diameter grows making the line appear larger in diameter than it actually is. When people go to replace it they say "this looks like it" and they typically gravitate to a larger diameter. A larger diameter in a drum with a fixed inner diameter can be problematic if the line coils haphazardly and starts to rub against the drum cover. When in doubt go smaller.
I believe in your last sentence that you re-positioned your jib track cars aft as this sail is larger than the sail that was last rigged. The bigger the sail the further the clew moves back along the boat. In order to correct for the new shape you were correct in moving the cars back. The shape you are looking for balances the leech (back edge) of the sail and the foot (bottom edge). Too far forward and the leech is tight and foot too loose, and if the car too far aft and the foot will be too tight and the leech is too loose. Keep in mind the movement of the jib cars is the correct method for changing the shape of the headsail. As the wind pipes up you can spill of the top of the leech by moving the cars forward effectively depowering the headsail and keeping the boat under control and on its keel.
Good luck and enjoy.
Dale
Dale,
That's a lot of great information. I actually got to mess around with the crimpers for those stainless things, since the running backstay uses them to attach to the rigging. I was wondering if you thought it'd be worth it to have one of those crimpers on board? Obviously it is useful at this particular moment, but I don't have spare stainless wire, and with the exception of the ... quadrant rebuild kit (? - the precut stuff that goes around the quadrant), I don't really plan to. For backups of rigging, I'm leaning towards a few lengths of Dyneema, and use those in case of rig failure, and start practicing splices for the eyes. I'm thinking about trying my hand at making a dyneema pendant for the lower, since I may have to cut off the top one (not going to do that until the lower one is on, as it might be fine. I know I'll have to be super careful about chafing, but besides that, any other thoughts?
I did go take a look at the drum, and if what you are saying is correct about the drum being able to spin either way, then the reweld on the lower drum is off.
Here is a full album of the photos I have. (https://photos.app.goo.gl/gW5Vx6RMvupdLtcd7) For now, I can take you all on a journey of embedded pics.
This is how the roller furler looked when I got the boat. Now, I know it's not a great picture, but this is what I used as a reference for the position of that middle metal piece.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3duOz5cHyEyezx0ITgdMvmpwd_hn9OkBZQFNUchnsEq1QucodPKhMSdwfaVB0iTK_7iRObdAPx1_8mpk8bIbcCd3x9Vm7YUapqaGnMRnPy8XC_xA5U0SkagxDe7H5QbFpuhTFSjbch-NBdlLOO0nsz7DA=w1263-h947-no?authuser=0)
Initially, when they reinstalled it, the bottom bracket was out of line with the luff groove. That was just some allen bolts inside the drum. This is what it looks like setup to furl in the correct direction. You can see the chafe point.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3ennEu7jYo3cWScPezxHMU__aKnJSxUrRZfCRWf_yyB5d7bft22Zwm2-S0I4aiPM7hBt0_2pT20YueSTsjuFXZQPWH0wEBiBvwgj5CjCXkqzz2AffFrbjI4DhN_a7w3Q4kxa78F3aBg7lGZUAeECna5-Q=w1263-h947-no?authuser=0)
So I found out that the metal piece it's chafing on is actually the stationary part of the drum. Look below.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3cIEaf25z8MuOW3EZkpp85lSsOVyu4ojcR_BYjq_mc6Z1jdXwVuv1Zik7WKWNZzHxu0qK0uyLxE7I3e7AdD-btA0383oni1IDv4XZZqmsiDrR0P6RhuqNV_1DcwnjdPDO083kNYyqLTQDC-KKPZX6B3og=w1263-h947-no?authuser=0)
Honestly, it seems like it could do with a few degrees of rotation clock-wise, but I think that would involve cutting and rewelding. For now, I'll get a smaller line, and see how much of a difference it makes, but I'm not sure it will. Maybe I could just add a piece of moleskin or something around that middle piece?
I will say this: when we went out sailing, I went on deck to furl the jib (and made sure to keep the lines out of the water). I have to admit that our striking of the sails certainly felt really smooth!!
Jordan,
Looking at your drum, all you need to do is run the rope out the other slot and wind it the other way to accommodate the reversed jib wind. Hope that makes sense, just know that you don't need to run the furler line down the port side. You can leave it starboard.
The line needs to run clean through the slot. Otherwise it will fray quickly as it is now. That line is kind of a bane as I have seen it break on boats in a marina. Or it will break while reefing which is worse. Line breaks, jib comes out and flails till it shreds in a blow.
I bought the crimpers at Harbor Freight, ferrel kit at West Marine, and carried them with me while cruising. Used them for various things including making new helm cables and rope to wire halyard ends. I kept a few lengths of the old standing rigging and lifelines as backups and for use as repair pieces. Cable is cheap and so is that crimper. Also came in handy to help other people make emergency rigging repairs. Had a Dremel with a cut off wheel to cut cable with.
Oh. I wasn't clear. The pictures with the blue/white line is with the line ran through so it furls the correct way. I initially had it going through the other opening, but that was even worse. Right now it's tied to one of the stanchions, so I'll try to get some more photos tonight with it wound correctly and run through that first block. It's not difficult to do, and since I'm going to be swapping that line out anyway for something thinner, might as well.
Oh, on another note, I watched a short documentary about Comanche, a 100ft racing monohull. Watching them trim those sails was a thing of beauty. Video here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDmz9iqyeSU)
I was going to move the block to the port side, but I didn't feel right about it. The chafe protection is in place on the roller furler drum, but that is not an ideal solution. I'll probably talk about this in my main thread, but our sailing plans have changed and solidified a bit. To that end, most cruising for the next year or two is going to be the West coast of Florida. So I can wait on getting a 130% high cut yankee, and stick with this 150% genoa. To that end, the sail came down yesterday, and delivered to a sailmaker (Super Sailmakers). He looked at it, and was super impressed with the repairs that Dale (or his people) did. So I'm getting new sacrificial cloth put on the other side of the sail. We're going with Crest Ash (https://www.sunbrella.com/sunbrella-shade-crest-ash-4662-0000), which is setting the stage for our new color scheme. We might abandon the green accents, and just stick with light gray.
Okay. There is a real possibility I got fucked with a bit here. I don't know enough to know how, precisely, but there is a real possibility. There is also a possibility it's my own thoughts and feelings and ignorance.
I was not a fan of the customer service, for not offering things I didn't ask for (like a schedule, and the steps involved). We drove 3 hours, got delayed and had to kill an hour, and it still wasn't done. I'm going to create another thread, because I am most certainly feeling upset about it, but a bunch (or all) of it may be on me.
That being said, the work looks top notch. The color is amazing, and I can't wait until tomorrow morning when we raise it in the morning. I'll post what I paid, along with the quote they sent me for a new main and mizzen. Dale might wind up refitting me, and I'll document the process. Pictures tomorrow.
Jordan,
Hoping you weren't taken advantage of and will be watching for the rest of the story. Good luck!
I don't think I was. The work seems solid, and I love the color. But it was literally the 150% Genoa that Dale sent me, just getting the sacrificial cloth on the port side. They removed the velcro, and installed a cleat or block to adjust leech tension. All in all, it cost me $980. They quoted me for new sails too, and I'll post that as well. I'm thinking I'm going to go with Dale, but we'll see. I was absolutely livid that they had my sail for damn near 6 weeks, for two days of work. Literally. One hour to pull it out and measure it to get me a quote (a week and a half after they had the sail), 3-4 weeks for no reason, and a day for the work.
I didn't know what to ask, and was caught off guard. I think it was my own issue. Let me know if that seems like a fair price and if that turnaround is expected.
I know we bought this boat without a headsail, and when we put one up, I felt...I don't know. Right, maybe? And all this time with a bare forestay* weighed on me. It's up now, it's beautiful. We'll see how I feel in the morning.
* I know, technically I don't have a forestay, but the words worked.
It certainly makes me feel better having the headsail up. I am going to move forward with Dale, since he so far has posited a bunch of great questions that I hadn't thought about, plus I'll get to do all the measurements myself. I intend to document the entire process here, with a skilled loft that just knows these boats. I'll open another thread for the process as it is going on, sails selected, material selected, the theoretical performance at different points of sail, and whatever else comes up.