Hello. I am a new member to this forum and have some questions about the 367.
I have owned a Pearson 323 for the past 10 years and am generally familiar with Pearson build quality, sailing characteristics, etc. My wife and I are now thinking about giving up the 323 here in San Francisco Bay and buying another boat in the PNW. The 367 has always been a favorite from afar and now we have added a 367 located in Portland, OR to our list of boats to visit. http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1982/Pearson-367-2915616/Portland/OR/United-States#.VoQ5dhF7AZM (http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1982/Pearson-367-2915616/Portland/OR/United-States#.VoQ5dhF7AZM)
My questions:
1. While the Portland 367 has been repowered and updated in other ways, are there particular issues or problems in the original build of the 367 that I should focus on when I visit? Mast step, staysail under-deck stay, etc. If I get serious about this boat I'll commission a survey, but I want to get started with my own inspection (aided by the knowledge gained from other 367 owners here).
2. The staysail pedestal and boom have been removed from the Portland 367 and I don't believe the sheet arrangement as I understand it will serve me very well; it is likely that if I end up with this boat I'll need/want to make some rigging changes. I have greatly appreciated the photos and discussion by Sea Dragon and others on this forum and hope that you will all add your thoughts here in response to my question: Should I reinstall the pedestal and staysail boom....or should I install cabin-top tracks for the staysail sheets? Which is better for you and why? If I install cabin-top tracks, where is the best location and has installation been troublesome in terms of interior access and strength of the cabin-top?
3. If you look at the Portland Yachtworld posting, please let me know what you think of the value and asking price for this boat.
Many thanks in advance for your responses.
First – Welcome aboard!
My take on the "Portland" P367;
1. Nicely upgraded – winches, full cockpit enclosure, electronics, Autopilot, Beta Marine,
counter tops, rigging, freezer, and refrigerator.
2. Upgraded electric panel - interesting
3. Factory upgraded to include the 4 opening ports vs. fixed – Very nice option
4. Looks clean and well maintained in the pictures
5. Wind & solar
My thoughts on the staysail. First let me say, I use the staysail a lot (60% of the time sailing and 90% when beating) so I have very strong opinions on head sail configuration of the 367. I tell you this only so you will have context for my comments.
I am able to point 5-7 degrees higher with the staysail & jib (yankee) in winds 6 to 18 knots. The boat sails nicely with a reef in the main and the staysail combo in winds over 20 knots.
About 11 years ago I went from the factory 95% yankee to a larger (approximately 110%) yankee. I am replacing the yankee (jib) and staysail this winter. After many hours with the sailmaker (North Sails) I have reduced the jib by a small amount and shorten slightly the staysail to better fit the furling configuration on Sea Dragon.
Now for the staysail boom – I have love/hate relationship with my boom. As such I have toyed, more than once, with removing it and installing tracks and an additional winch on the coach roof. I am now on my third outhaul configuration for the staysail, hopefully this time I will be happy.
Staysail boom PLUSES:
- Easy to trim
- Self Tending
- It is on the boat
- I am comfortable w/it
Staysail boom NEGATIVES:
- Takes up deck space
- Trip hazard
- Limited trim options
If you have the staysail boom, I would reinstall it and sail the boat the way it was configured – If you need to purchase a new boom, I would strongly consider spending the money on adding tracks, winch, and organizer to sail without the boom.
Garner
Sea Dragon
Thank you Garner. Yours is one of the websites that I have greatly appreciated as I have tried to get better acquainted with the 367. Thank you for all of the outstanding photos and project summaries. Your comments about the size of the Yankee and its relation to the staysail are very helpful and confirm my idea that the 367 may very well point higher than my 323 or the 365.
If you were to abandon the pedestal/club arrangement and add tracks to the cabin top, do you have an opinion about proper location and structural attachment points/structural changes that may be appropriate?
Very nicely done interior. Lots of good ideas there especially the added storage, teak veneer, Corian counter top upgrades and the dual freezer/reefer modification. The heater installed were Pearson intended is a plus up in the NW.
The Beta marine repower is a good choice (Kubota Diesel Engine). As with any repower alignment needs to be looked at, although I would be surprised if most marine surveyors understand the intricacies of that.
The self tailing winches are an expensive upgrade. The rack and pinion autopilot drive is unusual but it sounds bullet proof. If you ever upgrade the autopilot, that piece of hardware can stay.
The reason I say that that is most of the electronics listed, although very serviceable would not survive an upgrade to a modern Raymarine SEATALKng backbone. The C series Chartplotter is incompatible. Fortunately the RD218 Radar is compatible with any of the modern Raymarine E series multifunction displays which becomes the hub for a SEATALKng system. The RD218 you have installed is a real bonus if you decide to upgrade your chart plotter later on.
The Garmin backup chart plotter is new but would remain a standalone backup. The maps in the Garmin may be more current that what's in the C70.
When you mix ST60 (meaning Seatalk1) devices on a SEATALKng system, the Seatalk1 devices are delegated to listen only. You need to install a converter block to do this. If their were a newer ST70 display in this system it can also bridge SEATALKng to Seatalk1. Incidentally Seatalk2 was a complete bust for Raymarine ( the C series Plotter is Seatalk2 and 1)
The S2G autopilot controller and the ST6002 are Seatalk1 as well. Only the SX-10 smartpilot is compatible with SEATALKng. So you may someday end up retiring a lot of you system as you are forced to migrate up to SEATALKng or NEMEA2000 as it called. And you will be tempted to do that when you look at the color i70 MFD display. Everything you currently have is NMEA0183. In the meantime your wind and compass data can be transmitted to NMEA2000 Seatalkng with an ITC-5 and then converted back to NEMEA0183 for the Autopilot and the ST60 displays.
But, I don't think you can go wrong with this boat. Its had a ton of care and its very obvious.
Best of luck,
Pete, Pearson 365 hull #6.
Hi Lib Two,
When I bought the boat a few years ago, it has a pedistal, but no club, lines, traveler, or blocks. A PO clipped a single block the the fwd lower turnbuckle toggle. I installed tracks on the coach roof. Lewmar 30 ST wiches will go on cabin top on both sides of companionway hatch. Have not sailed much since track install, but few times I did, it handled well and tacking was easier than though. Just back the staysail until jib is through, then tack the staysail. It's harder to tack with staysail down, unless staysail stay is removable (mine is). Defer to Garner's opinion regarding staysail performance.
https://picasaweb.google.com/111274927949602013478/StaysailTrack#
Regarding portland boat, why is there such a large rust stain on the stbd transon? Is that the engine exhaust output? If it is, it shouldn't be rust stained. You might be looking at a failing water lift or exhaust riser, or maybe rusted out exhaust manifold (which is cast iron at least on my Universal 5444.
Where the staysail sheet leads are probably fine if the staysail was cut for that position.
Mast step: Is it steel or Aluminum, mine on hull #42 is AL. Check for water damage on the teak trim around the mast in the overhead, check for water streaks down the mast on interior, If any water damage, core around mast is probably rotten.
staysail under-deck stay: It's just a short stay with swaged fitting, which will probably be severely pitted because of wet anchor rode. If it is rusty, it's shot and will have to be replaced. mine was rusty and burried under 300' 5/8 line. I replaced with stainless bar instead of anther swged fitting. Check the attachment point under deck for rust If exists, you'll need to rebed with new through bolts. The core on centerline is teak plywood (about 12" wide, running from bow to just aft of pedistal.
Staysail: If you get this boat, sail it for a while before making any changes. Maybe the PO did it right. after that, go with tracks and sheet to winches on cabin top. If you go to cockpit (like they are now on that boat), you will be tripping over those sheets everytime you go fwd. Also, having sheet winches on cabin top, under dodger puts you out of the weather when you are using only staysail and main.
Consider going back to hank on staysail (easy to drop, easy to make stay removable). One of the pictures in that ad show a hank on staysail. ask owner if he still has it.
The liner of these boats has a gutter that runs around the perimeter to catch al water that leaks into the coach roof. From the mast area, the gutter runs down hill to the cockpit area, then will overflow into cockpit lockers. on a rainy day, reach up into that gutter for moisture. You'll probably be able to reach it above aft end of nav desk and from the cabinet above the sink. Pick a day when it's been raining all night long.
Since the engine is a Beta that has been recently installed, there should not be any issue with pitting on teh aluminum gear case cover (aka timing cover) on the aft end of the engine( the end with the pulleys). On my Universal, which is also a Kubota block, there is some pitting on the aluminum parts that carry the freshwater coolant. No way to tell, unless you remove the parts (was a real pain on a 30 - year old engine).
Stick your head in the locker fwd of the head sink as deep as you can and take a sniff. So the same with the bottom two opening on the stbd v berth lockers (assuming holding tank is under stbd v berth. If you smell shit, you're looking at replacing head hoses and deoderizing the wood. Doable, but takes time to deorderize the wood once the smell has permeated it.
Feel the underside of the v drive (look at with flashlight and mirror if possible) for rust. Often that section of bilge fills up with water and v drive rusts out. Which v drive model is it, mine is RV26, which was installed ~2003 by some PO. Not sure what happened to original V drive, but it probably rusted out.
Look for water stains on the grabrails in the overhead.
Where do the had sink and shower drain. Is there a thru hull under head sink, is it a ball valve or original gate valve?
Thanks Pete!
You've provided some really good info about the Raymarine instruments and auto pilot. I'm a paper chart/hand held GPS navigator so I will have some learning to do if I end up with this boat. My current electronic data feed is all NEMA 183 (to my wheel pilot and AIS receiver) and Seatalk between my ST60s.
I like the interior also...at least based on the photos. But photos have fooled me before so a visit is next step.
Thanks too for your overall thoughts. I am generally liking this boat but have some concerns about the staysail rigging. I am also aware that it is easy to get emotionally attached without good rational basis...so your comments start to provide a rational foundation.
Thanks again.
P69,
Thanks for the detailed response!
I share your concern about that rust on the transom; more investigation definitely needed.
Great tip about reaching up into the gutter of the ceiling liner. There will be no shortage of rain in Portland. Am I correct in thinking that the ceiling mounted grab rails are through-bolted to the exterior cabin-top hand rails? Is that why you have suggested checking on the interior for water stains?
I appreciate your thoughts on the staysail and the photos of your boat. I know that Garner flies his staysail much of the time and that is encouraging news. Perhaps using the sheet blocks as installed on the Portland boat could work but with the furler it seems to me that some method of adjusting the sheet blocks would be required when sailing with a partially furled staysail in storm conditions. And I really don't like the idea of the sheets crossing the side decks.
Thanks again.
Richard,
Yes, the grab rails are through bolted,sealed on exterior with silicone, as is all other deck hardware. The silicone used back in 1980s is really tenacious stuff when it holds (smooth surface gelcoat around large hatches),but on the non-skid texture, water gets in. Look carefully at the grab rails where they contact the overhead liner for dark discoloring. Some of it might be subtle, but if the water made it all the way to the interior, more damage is in the core. The deck is about 1 3/8" thick at the grabrail areas, so a slow leak will not be readily apparent. Not all of my grab rails leaked, and few of the leaks made it all the way to the interior; therefore, if you see any dark discoloration on any of the wood backing blocks in the overhead, you've got a leak, unless a PO has rebedded.
With fixed sheet leads, you can always lengthen the tack pendant if you had a hank on sail to adjust for sheeting angle. Although all the rules-of-thumb state the tracks should be angled 11 degrees from the tack, if i were to do the tracks over, I'd make them parallel to and interior of the grab rails. On most points of sail, the sheet from the staysail clew comes in at an angle from over the lifelines, then the sheet lead turns t the block to the winch. If the tracks were parallel, not angled, it would be fairer lead. I might remove and redo once i get all my other tasks done and the cabin top winches installed and, . . . and . . . .
If you do not have the club foot boom pedestal you are screwed as it has not been produced by forespar for many many years. The boom itself could be made from any suitable section of extruded small mast/boom stock. There has been a used pedestal listed on this site some time ago.
It is a shame, as the factory installed version is excellent. The pedestal and boom were removed to install the furler. For the ease of furling they lost a single sheet self tacking system that automatically controls the amount of draft in the sail as the boom is eased. The offset between the stay and the pedestal is responsible for that function.
We deal with people all the time that come into our store and state - I do not want to leave the cockpit for any reason, everything needs to be run back. I always ask the question - what happens when you have to leave the cockpit, then what are you going to do? There is something to be said about sea legs and becoming accustomed and confident forward of the companion way. When it is piping 30's and you are rocking and rolling in 6ft square chop is not the time learn. Running back the out haul, reef lines and halyards litters valuable deck footing with round to step on trip lines. Furling lines can become jammed and tangled or in heavy air nearly impossible to pull to wind up. Sheets have been known to wrap tight around anything with in reach during a jib flogging tack. Our number one reason given for purchasing a replacement dorade vent or replacement hatch parts is - the jib sheet tore it off of the cabin top. The conditions that you are going to rely on your self tacking clubfoot will be heavier weather. Its smaller size, closeness to the mast and no requirements to adjust will come in very handy.
Other than that little diatribe sidetrack the boat looks good in the pictures. I also question the rust particularly because it seems odd it is in the pattern it is being the exhaust. Are they using the exhaust port for something other than just exhaust?
Dale Tanski
Maruska
Hull #40
Dale you got me thinking about that rust stain. The Beta 38 has a bronze tubestack that will clog and gaskets that will leak. This allows seawater to enter the block creating rust. if the tube stack has failed the engine will effectively become sea water cooled. Not good for that cast iron block. A sample of the coolant should reveal what's really going on. It should be green not red.
I am also wondering why this re-power does not have the Borg warner 1:1 direct drive gearbox. Its a factory option. Instead this re-power was done with a 2:1 PM-60. That would make the overall gear reduction 4:1. That doesn't prop. So this needs a closer look. If the V-drive is stock 2:1 like I would suspect , the gearbox should be swapped out for a Borg Warner Velvet drive.
None of this is deal killer. They are just issues that can all be resolved.
Pete
Pete,
The ad at yachtworld states the v drive is a 1:1.
How much of what you discussed regarding my ~2:1 transmission and 1:1 vdrive would apply to this Portland boat?
http://www.pearson365.com/forum/index.php?topic=1176.msg7933#msg7933
Thanks P69, nice catch. As for the 1:1 V drive, It has to handle twice the tourque with the 2:1 in the gearbox. The Rv26 can do that. Rv10 is very much borderline in that dept. I'll bet you'd like to see what's in this boat? The seller should have posted a picture. Pete
Yep, I sure would like to see how that RV26 was stuffed into that part of the bilge.
Richard, if you go check out that boat, get a few pictures of that v drive installation for me. I also have an RV26 and it's a pretty tight fit in that part of the bilge. I almost thought I'd never get it out a few weeks ago (it's out for inspection, cleaning, painting; it's pretty rusty). Oil is checked by opening the cabinet at the end of the fridge counter, where a hole is drilled in the floor of the cabinet to get to the dipstick.
Also, what kind of shaft between transmission and v drive is in there. the normal walter large-ass shaft or something that Pete instaled, which is a, what about 1" dia, ss shaft?