I have a very good customer that is looking for an autopilot. His wife has laid down the law because he sails alone most of the time and she is concerned bad things could happen to him without a helping hand. He admits that he indeed sails alone and tries to sail 20 or so miles or so each time he goes out. His work schedule leaves little time for sailing so day, night or sloppy weather out he goes.
He doesn't want to spend a fortune so he is looking at wheel pilots but is disillusioned with regards to the robustness/reliability of the Raymarine EV 100 wheel pilot. He knows several people that have them and have had problems with them. With no other choices out there for wheel pilots, the default position is now becoming under deck pilots.
So... If you were starting over regarding under deck pilots what unit would you purchase and why? In addition, my customer is also ready to upgrade his instrumentation package so keep that in the mix.
Thanks in advance for the information and your valued opinion.
Dale Tanski
Maruska
Obersheimer Sailor Supply
Dale,
Caveat, this is 25 year old info but may provide some insight. We installed an Autohelm 6000 in our 33000 # steel cutter and travelled about 5000 miles with it steering most of the way. Nary a hiccup!!! I am not sure how that translates to today's market but it was an electrically operated ram on a rudder arm. The rudder was unbalanced. It never lacked for power or responsiveness. Hope this is of some use.
Jim
Anyone have any information or experience with the CPT cockpit autopilot?
Dale,
If had it to do all over again I would do the same thing - below deck with a remote. As my children have gotten older, I sail more and more singlehand and without a doubt a good autopilot is one the most important pieces of safety gear on the boat. My Raymarine setup has served me well for 9+ seasons (knock on wood). You are correct the below deck unit will run 4-5 times the price of a wheel pilot but it works in all types conditions when you need it - important!
Garner
I used to have a Navico Wheel Pilot and even though it was very reliable I found that it could not steer the boat in rough conditions. I upgraded to an underdeck Raymarine autopilot and after three years of constant cruising it is still working perfectly and steers the boat exceptionally well in all conditions. Just made a passage across the Sea of Cortez in 30 plus winds with 8 to 12 foot seas 6 seconds apart and on the nose. My Ray underdeck was a godsend.
Every sailboat cruiser I know and myself included consider the servo pendulum self steering wind vane such as a Monitor or the Airies to be the only reliable autopilot system. That said, there is a place for electronic Autopilots which includes motoring and in some conditions of downwind sailing.
Here is a write-up comparing Servo Pendulum to Electronic Autopilot system. http://www.selfsteer.com/windvaneVAutopilot/
The biggest problem with the electronic autopilots other than battery drain is in the choice of motor drive. Its clear that drives like the ST4000 Autohelm Wheel drive draw 2.5 Amps average are not capable of steering the Pearson 365. I've have an St4000 wheel drive and even though I've increased the control loop gain it is not capable of maintaining course. The linear type 2 Raymarine M81132 seems to work but will draw 5 amps on the average with peaks up to 30 amps. Most modern boats are being equipped with the electric hydraulic linear drives which draw even more current.
A Monitor Windvane system will generated steering power proportional to the apparent wind and speed of the boat. So the harder it blows the better it works. Once set it will maintain a course to the wind. This is a much safer mode of operation.
I have seen a small tiller autopilot (very low current) steer the Servo Pendulum self Steering Vane as a very clever adaptation of new and old technology. A servo motor connected to the steering ring of a Monitor Windvane would actually replace the wind van paddle and provide the steering system with tremendous mechanical advantage over a purely electrical steering system. The advanced electronics that incorporates wind, magnetic and inertial guidance sensors found on the Raymarine EV autopilot could control this in heavy air with very light current draw.
Pete
You are correct Pete. Along with having my Ray under deck autopilot (AP), I also have a Monitor Windvane and a Ray 1000 Tillerpilot.
My Monitor does a very good job of steering the boat by the wind in anything above 12 or so knots and the tillerpilot, attached where the vane attaches, will steer you by the compass in light and following winds, when the vane doesn't work so well. The tillerpilot will also steer the boat (through the Monitor) in any conditions and draw very little power. I typically use the Monitor on longer then 3 or 4 day passages.
However the under deck AP is extremely convenient, but does use a bit of power. But in windy conditions, when you are beating or on a reach, my wind generator handles the load by itself and during a sunny day the solar panels handle the load without any problem.
If you are going to do some long distance cruising, like me, I recommend having both the under deck AP and a wind vane. If you are only doing local water or Sea of Cortez type cruising I would go with just the under deck AP.
I forgot to mention that both my Ray under deck AP and tillerpilot will steer the boat by the wind as well as by the compass, utilizing the wind transducer at the top of my mast through the SeaTalk ng network (NMEA 2000).
I'm enjoying reading what you guys have to say, even though I don't have much to offer. There is a good article in Practical Sailer on it. http://www.practical-sailor.com/issues/37_40/features/Rotary-Drive-Autopilot-for-Worm-Gear-Steering_11374-1.html?page=2
I like what Lou is saying. Since I don't think any Raymarine Autopilot system allows for switching between dual drive systems, in this case linear drive on the rudder quadrant and a wheel drive on the Windvane Servo pendulum steering system. I think its more complicated than an electrically switching the 2 servo motors because the calibrations are different. So at the end of the day you end up running separate autopilot computers. But it is appealing to have a modern autopilot course computer controlling the windvane directly. I think its worth trying.
But to provide Dale with some feedback I'm going to explain why I think the St4000+ Autohelm system just will not cut it on the Pearson 365 and in the process describe what is needed in any autopilot system. I don't know what Simrad offers but it has to be the same technology.
The Wheel drive can't deliver enough tourque to sail a 18,000 lb boat. The Type 1 and Type 2 linear drives can deliver 650 lbs and 1500 lbs of thrust respectively. The ST4000+ can be configured as an ST5000+ and fitted with a Type 1 linear drive. But may still underperform because it lacks a rate gyro. The gyro stabilized course computers on modern Autopilot systems respond by steering into the heeling motion of the boat. Non gyro stabilized autopilots must heel, and go off course before the motion can be corrected.
Raymarine has several models of legacy gyro stabilized course computers as well as the current Raymarine EV linear drive systems ($3300). When choosing a Course computer you must match it to the type of linear drive you are using. For type 1 linear drive systems an SPX-10 or S1G course computer can be used. For type 2 linear drives you need an SPX-30 or S2G or S3G computer. For a control head, the ST6002 will work on either. The ST6001 will only work with the S1 course computer. If you have an ST7001 or ST8001 by all means use it.
If you get an S1 or S2 computer without a rate gyro you can wire in an external gyro. The Ray part# E12101 will cost $500. There is an aftermarket part for $200. Other feedback sensors you will need are the rudder sensor. The newer smart pilot course computers (SPX-10,30) have a rudder position estimator algorithm and I believe they do not require as much calibration as the S1, S2 course computer. From what I've read I'm not recommending the type 100/300 course computer as they do not have rate gyros built in.
You will also need all the NMEA sentences for GPS and apparent wind from other systems on your boat.
So in summary if I can get a Type 1 or 2 linear drive and an S1G or S2G course computer, and an ST6001, I can upgrade to a modern autopilot for under $2K. The only piece of equipment I can repurpose is the flux gate compass.
In regards to the EV-100 Wheel system. They spec it for boats up to 16,000 lbs. Unfortunately you cannot upgrade to a type 1 linear drive ($2k by itself) without also buying an ACU-200 computer. The ACU-100 is not compatible.
Pete
Garner,
Your write up is the best I've seen but you do not say if your Type 1 linear drive is long or short.
I was at a boat show and it seems that hydraulic electric linear drives are now standard in new boats. Perhaps the advantage is no more electric clutch to wear out and solenoid valves draw less current.
Does your Smart Pilot (S1) have the rate gyro installed? Raymarine seems to think this is a critically important sensor these days. Thanks Pete
Never mind. The type 1 linear drive and the Type 2 short both have 12" stroke. Pete
Pete,
Yes the Type 1 is short and I went with the internal gyro - worth the extra money especially when sailing down wind.
Thank you for the kind words.
Garner
Wow guys, you really know this marine electronics stuff. Where did you learn it? Is there a good book or web site that explains the basics of how a NMEA 2000 works and how to figure out what will talk to what?. I understand basic electronics, and have built computers, but the marine specific stuff is new to me.
The Nation Marine Electronic Association or NMEA sets the standards for the protocol.
http://www.nmea.org.
Raymarine obfuscated the hardware (physical) layer with the introduction of seatalk. But the NMEA sentences remain the same. Raymarine has a subset of their own proprietary command structures which are proprietary. Since Raymarine like Apple Computer does not believe in open source, your only solution is to reverse engineer. This fellow has done some of that:
http://www.thomasknauf.de/seatalk.htm
As a EE I designed navigation and timing systems for various autonomous "platforms" , so this stuff was job requirement for me. Snooping into a seatalk data stream to decode NMEA sentences might be how I get my kicks but your best bet is to simply read the legacy manuals that you can download from the Raymarine site. But in typical Raymarine fashion there is no theory of operation on anything. Understanding how an autopilot works on a boat, an airplane or a rocket requires a some knowledge of control theory. Another Engineering course I found to be of significant importance throughout my career.
Thanks guys this helps a lot. I've been looking to upgrade my AP for a while with much confusion. I haven't been on the forum for awhile (shame on me) but should have started my research here.
Stew
Pete: Thanks for the info. Both sites are pretty usefull. I couldn't follow everything, but it helped me with some of the basics. We have old Raytheon gear with some issues (missing data card and no GPS signal) and after reading on those links, I think I understand what is going on a little. I think I know what I need to do to get our chart plotter going again, if we decide to use it instead of replacing it or just using the iPad. Those sites helped to understand what our manuals were saying. Our radar and chart plotter are Ratheon (now Raymarine) NMEA 0183, and the new stuff is Raymarine's Seatalk. I think the GPS may need replacing, but the only ones for sale these days are NMEA 2000 or Seatalk. From that site, I am beginning to understand the difference between Seatalk and NMEA 2000, but not completely by any means. I guess there is an adaptor available. We also need a new map card. In total, it brings the total up to pretty close to buying a new modern chart plotter, but I don't quite understand if it would talk to our old radar. I might be able to fix the GPS, but it is pre WAAS, so not as accurate a position fix as is possible today.
I never used it a lot, but going through school, I did have a couple of controls classes, mainly flight controls. Same principles, but more aero stuff. I used it a bit in the labs puting together servo-hydraulic load frames to test stuff. That was closed loop feedback control stuff, but mostly I was putting together pieces others had designed and built. It was fun when it worked, frustrating when I couldn't figure out why it wasn't.
Stew,
One of the better configurations you might consider would be to buy a newer Raymarine ST70 control head. (around $450). This puts your money where you can see it. This head is compatible with the legacy DX-10 or DX-30 Course computers. I believe this is newer than the S1G and S2G computer which are not compatible wit the ST70 Control Head.
An option for the linear drive that I'm looking into is the Octopus 1212LAM12 Electric Hydraulic Linear Drive. Its falls in between the type 1 and type 2 Raymarine screw type linear drives at around 880 lbs of thrust and has adjustable flow rate. ( type 1 is 650 lbs) Current draw is 4-6 amps so a DX-30 may be the right course computer for the Octopus. The DX-10 can drive 1.5 to 3 amp drives and the DX-30 4-6 amps. But actual current on the Octopus should be low when steering the Pearson 365. Their claim is that it draws half the current of mechanical drives.
Pete
Thanks Pete,
I'll look up all of these...thanks again.
Stew
Garner mentioned the need for a remote. I could not agree more with that. Conceivably when you fall overboard single handing you can disengage the autopilot and head the boat up.
The Raymarine S100 Remote looks like it will work with any of the legacy Raymarine Autopilot systems. There is a Sea Talk base station radio that plugs into the Sea talk buss. Their literature does not mention this little detail. They must assume we all think it works by magic.
But these English dudes have some cool technology.
http://www.madmanmarine.com/
They have key fob wireless remote system pretty cheap. But the Sea talk to Wi-Fi bridge lets you steer the boat from an IPhone App. Personally I'd rather see some Android or Windows Apps for tablets.
Pete
Pete it's all your fault that I've spent the last 24hrs surfing autopilot stuff!
Yes, I also agree with you and Garner about the remote. Also thanks again for the dodger Garner, we are still using it
( http://www.sailblogs.com/member/firefly25/index.php?show=gallery&aid=27235&pid=571407 )
I really like the looks of that Octopus drive. Also after researching controllers and control heads, I have a new idea that perhaps you could toss your opinion at.
I currently have a Raymarine XPS-5 wheelpilot installed that suffers from all the problems everyone always mentions. After some research I found a couple articles about converting the spx-5 to a below deck hydraulic drive or electric linear drive. It seems that there are a couple differences beween the spx-5 controller and the dx-10 that you mentioned. The primary problem for operating a linear drive is a the lack of a 'clutch' output from the spx-5 controller. That can apparently be overcome by adding a manual engage switch which that may or maynot require feeding a relay or MOSFET to control the clutch solenoid on the linear drive. The other main issue that you have already mentioned, is current draw depending on the type of drive used. The articles also talk about using relays or MOSFETs to solve this as well. Apparently adding the rudder position indicator helps a lot as well.
Here are the articles that I'm referring to:
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f13/cockpit-pilot-spx-5-and-hydraulic-pump-possible-75897.html
http://albin25.eu/our-a25ak-dido/35-modifications/78-changing-the-wheel-pilot-into-a-qhydro-pilotq
I still have a least a couple months to come up with a plan since Diana and I are currently in New Zealand visiting our daughter (and going broke). The boat will be on the hard in Puerto Rico til we arrive the 1st of April.
Anyway, If this could work I could save about $1000 on the conversion. Thoughts?
Stew,
Thanks for those interesting links. It's something I have been wondering about as well. I looked into it and I was able to find out more than I suspect Raymarine would want out in the public domain.
Raymarine provides different models of Smartpilot computers that are designed to work with various capacity drive systems that require low, medium and higher motor drive currents. I'm talking about the SPX-5, 10 and 30. As you also discovered, the MosFET in the H bridge is rated at 64 amps, so it can conceivably run a heavier load. It would seem that the only difference between these models is the size fuse they install.
However there is a 3rd parameter that is different in all three models an that is the current limit set point. This is a critical circuit that prevents the motor in your drive from burning up if the load on the rudder becomes excessive. Raymarine could have easily designed one version of Smart pilot with jumper selects for the motor type but I suspect they didn't for 2 reasons:
1. They can make more money selling you what you think is a more powerful course computer. Its not. They are all equally powerful using the same ARM-7 96MHZ RISC processor and firmware algorithms.
2. If they made it a user adjustment, they could not limit their liability on burned out drive units that were subjected to overcurrent by improper jumper selection.
So if you hang a larger drive on the SPx-5 it will run very well most of the time. And probably better than the wheel tiller up to a point. When the motor current hits the threshold for the SPX-5 set point your motor will simply turn off and stop. The electric hydraulic units seem to be more efficient than the screw drive type. So this would extend the usable range of load conditions without current limiting. Other than that, engaging the clutch with a manual switch would be no more trouble than the manual engagement on the wheel tiller.
But bypassing the current limit sense by using external reversing relays would create a fire hazard. It is conceivable to me that without this safety circuit you could set a drive motor on fire at the worst time ( bad conditions at sea) . That being said there looks like there is a way to trick a SPX-5 into thinking its and SPX-10 or an SPX-30 and change the current limit set points. I never tried it so I don't know if its as simple as it seems and I would prefer not to disclose or recommend something that was not approved by Raymarine especially on a public forum.
As I eluded to above, the firmware for all three models course computer is identical. But I suspect they all run slightly different code that gets initialized at run time. If you get my drift.
Good luck with your AP project. With a little ingenuity I think we can repurpose some older components and save a fair amount of money in the process.
Pete
Great stuff Pete!
I too am concerned about the fire/overheat problem. We had mechanical actuators on a couple of the helicopters that I used to fly, and they were the number one failure components (always do to overheating). Best case would damage the drive and worst case would start a fire in a very difficult location. Pretty sure that I know what your alluding to regarding the controller, as it was mentioned in one of the articles, in that when you look at the SPX-5 configuration it is one of the items that does not allow editing.
I'm wondering if I could also solve the 'current limiting' problem by adding a 'hold' relay in the clutch circuit. An over current situation would open the 'hold' relay to disengage the drive. The controller would however still be feeding 'drive' inputs to the acuator. I'm not sure how that would affect the drive (i.e. when the clutch is reengaged)? An ammeter in the drive unit supply might work as a monitoring solution as well.
Fun project anyway and if it works, I can upgrade my system in two stages (which fits my budget much better).
Stew
Just noticed this link that Garner put up a while back. It's a great link to his autopilot install:
http://www.sailingseadragon.com/AutoPilot.htm
Garners system is now a few years old and uses the S1G. I did manage to locate a service manual for that version of smart pilot. This particular design has long been out of production because the NEC 70F39 32 bit uProcessor went obsolete about 10 years ago. This NEC microprocessor used a masked ROM meaning that no firmware upgrades were ever a possibility. Since then the technology has improved significantly. The SPX-5 ,10 and 30 have flash memory that has undergone several firmware upgrades. The part can be "flashed" with new improved code in the field. For this reason I am not considering the S1G Smart Pilot to be worth what they seem to be selling for. You are better off looking for a SPX-10
But I did determine that the motor drive circuitry found in the S1G was "lifted" and pasted verbatim into the SPX-5, 10 design. This supports my belief that the drive circuitry in the SPX-10 is identical and the current limiting set point is the only difference. That set point is set in software. The software knows what model SPX board it is from a resistor value that gets put in during factory configuration. Also there is current limiting on the clutch drive circuitry that is part of the SPX10 and 30 but not the 5 like you have.
Pete
I scored this autopilot hydraulic pump on Ebay for little or no money. Obviously its a type 1 or 2 Octopus pump. Octopus pumps have an adjustable flow rate (no fixed orifice like the other brands). It can be set from 600 cc to 1.8 liters/minute by loosening 2 screws and twisting the pump housing. This changes the stroke on the piston pump. A brilliant design.
(http://i1121.photobucket.com/albums/l505/banjoband/autopumpfront.png)
But the biggest surprise was what I found in the back end of the pump motor. It would appear that the H-bridge for changing direction, the current limiting and fusing is built into a controller as part of the pump. Sweet !
(http://i1121.photobucket.com/albums/l505/banjoband/autopumprear.png)
Can anyone ID what make of autopilot this came out of? Does not appear to be Raymarine or Simrad. Its nothing that appears in the Octopus catalog either. But they seem to have built it for someone.
Stew, this would solve your problem with running a heavier below deck autopilot drive that could interface to your X-5 controller.
Pete
That's brilliant Pete! I too have been thinking about going hydraulic vs electro-mechanical...also have been keeping my eye on eBay :D. Just 5 weeks and I'll be back on the boat to verify exactly what I have to work with.
I haven't used it much, but what do ya'll think of a W-H auto pilot (out of Washinton)?
It was on the boat when I bought it and seems to do a good job.
Don't know much about it. There is a hydraulic pump under galley sink, some cylindrical thing in cabinet on centerline in galley (fluxgate compass?), something aft on the stbd side referred to as a RAT, that looks like a little arm coming from a box wired to the main computer box, attached to the steering quadrant, and a much larger hydraulic arm on the port side attached to the steering quadrant. The control box in in the companion way, swings out into cockpit. The engage/disengage lever is in the port cockpit coaming. it's a plunger that pulls out to engage, push in to disengage.
It's pretty easy to use, set the course on its display, adjust two yaw and rudder gain, pull plunger out and it takes over
http://whautopilots.com/
Never heard of it. Checked out the website...looks pretty cool.
Looks to be a high quality Autopilot system. They put their money into a rock solid hydraulic drive system. The manual hydraulic bypass valve makes good sense. Although you could upgrade that part of the system to electric solenoid. If you ever upgrade I would leave the hydraulics and the 1/4 HP power pack in place. You are never going to get anything better than that from Raymarine.
Any Idea of how much current it draws? The RAT is the Rudder Angle Transducer.
Pete
Quote from: Jim S on January 20, 2015, 06:01:41 PM
Anyone have any information or experience with the CPT cockpit autopilot?
We've used the CPT all the way across the Pacific now and have some good experiences with it.
Pluses are:
Will steer you in a storm
Is reliable
Costs only $2100 USD for a 365 including spare belt and pins
Installs in about an hour plus wiring (only + and - wires to hook up)
Minuses are:
Poor algorithms. It tends to wander off course too much(up to 10 degrees makes sailing close hauled a lot harder to point effectively), our X-5 held a better course as the Raymarine has a better computer.
Strictly point and set. There are no track or wind following options.
No lighting. On a night watch you have to use a flashlight or adjust by Braille. But we got used to the Braille method quickly so it wasn't much of a problem.
There's nothing wrong with the X-5 (EV100), its just the drive unit that tends to fail. We sailed over 10k miles with one You can purchase the X-5 and a spare drive unit for the price of the CPT. It won't steer you in a storm but we just lie ahull or heave to anyways. You do have to keep your helm balanced as it won't handle a lot of weather helm for very long. This made us reef down earlier than we would otherwise. And you get all the bells and whistles such as a lit display and track following.
As far as power, the CPT uses marginally less power that the Raymarine.
I bought a SIMRAD WP-30 some years ago. It is a wheel autopilot. It has worked very well and is reliable. Not sure if they still make one like this.
Richard