Hi everyone. This is my first post. I have enjoyed reading your posts as I have been researching the purchase of a 365 recently. I'm looking at one in Los Angeles that has had the mizzen mast removed. The owner claims the boat sails fine. He says he did this to allow for a complete Bimini and cockpit enclosure. I don't know yet whether anything else has been modified to compensate for the removal of the mizzen. I am going to sail the boat on Wed. or Thur. and I will be able to tell whether the boat can be balanced or not. I'm curious to know if anyone out there has any firsthand experience with this issue. The boat has been upgraded and refit with a lot of good stuff so it might even be worth it to replace the mizzen rig. (I built and repaired boats in the '70s and '80s) Does anyone know of a used mizzen rig for sale near Los Angeles? I have owned and sailed a lot of boats for the past 40 years; H-28, Gulfstar 50, Planet 31 from New Zealand. I know the mizzen is useful and important. I appreciate any input. I will report back on Thursday (3/27/14), after I have sailed the boat. Thanks. Johan in Channel Islands Harbor, Oxnard, CA.
Johan,
There is no doubt that the ketch can be sailed without a problem without the mizzen. Ask any ketch owner, we do it all the time. In light air the boat may be a bit weak as you would be missing the area of the mizzen. The boat should balance just fine.
As for replacing the mizzen rig, that would be a costly proposition and finding one just laying around would be even tougher.
Hope all goes well with the test sail.
Dale
Thanks Dale for the info about your experience sailing w/o the mizzen. I'm finding more anecdotes on line about the advantages of removing a mizzen sail and mast. On the boat I'm looking at, it certainly makes the cockpit much more open and useful than on the ketch I also looked at recently. The Marina Del Rey boat also has davits and a dinghy which may be another reason, along with the nice Bimini top, why the owner removed the mizzen.
Johan-
My 365 is a sloop. The main rig is the same as the ketch except for a longer boom and therefore a bigger main. A new boom and main would make the boat as designed by Shaw (sloop model) with good performance and less cost than converting back to ketch. Jim
Thanks Jim. That makes a lot of sense. I noticed Garner has the dimensions for the ketch and sloop on http://www.sailingseadragon.com/Sloop.htm and /Ketch.htm
Sloop P 38' 0" E 13' 0" Mast Height 48' 6"
Ketch P 36' 0" E 11' 9" Mast Height 46' 0"
The difference in mast height could be an expensive problem.
When I do the trial sail on Wed. I will measure the main mast, boom, and mainsail and see if it's already been modified, if the owner's agent doesn't know. I think the owner is out of state.
If I buy the boat and decide to modify the mainmast, boom, and mainsail, I would probably consider some kind of furling main. Of course, I'd rather not go to such an expense if it's not really necessary, but it's worth considering all these things before I decide whether to buy the boat or not. This may be hijacking my own topic, but I'd also be interested if anyone has installed any kind of furling main; either in-boom or in-mast, or some other type. I'd love to be able to reef and furl both the jib and main from the cockpit. I'm not going to be racing, so a minor efficiency/speed loss would not bother me. I will be single-handing mostly around the Channel Islands near Los Angeles and I'm not as young as I used to be.
Thanks again to everyone for the good input. Johan
I have a sloop that was one a ketch. The previous owner did a lot of custom work including a 16' boom and the over-sized main that includes. I have to start reefing at about 23 knots, but I sail fine in light air. No problems with sail balance with the standard Jib.
Thanks Barrylab. Your comments are much appreciated.
Speaking of reefing, I got to do a sea trial today and when we got outside the breakwater at Marina Del Rey, the boat was overpowered. I don't know what it was blowing but probably around 20-25k. I had suggested reefing the main but the broker wanted to try the full rig, I guess 'cause I had raised my concerns about the rig balancing without the mizzen, etc. Well, it was not an ideal sea trial 'cause we also had a snafu with the 130% furling jib so we turned around and came back in.
I did get to motor sail out the channel with the main and the boat felt good and solid. I am going ahead and have it surveyed and hopefully buy it. I figure I'll deal with modding it if necessary, though it may not be necessary, based on what some of you have said. I do like the big open cockpit and the Bimini.
This boat has a newer Yanmar w/ rebuilt trannie and v-drive, new: fuel tank, running and standing rigging, mainsail, cockpit enclosure, Avon dinghy and outboard, SS davits, etc. so I'm thinking it's a pretty good deal for $35k. Depending on the surveys; rig, engine/tran/drive, and general out of the water survey, the price may go down a bit even.
Under 25k of wind even though it was a short sail, I liked the handling characteristics of the boat. It feels solid, stable, and pretty fast.
Thanks for all your help. I'll keep you posted as I move forward. Johan
We have lived aboard and sailed a 365 ketch for several years now. I often sail with just foresail and mizzen. Balances nicely and I would miss being able to to that. We also found that with a 135 genoa that we overpowered at 20 knots or so. I switched to a yankee headsail and now find that works well in all but really light air where we are usually motorsailing anyway. I don't miss the extra sail area but then again I'm never in much of a hurry. Good luck.
Thanks Ishmael for your comments and experiences. As I mentioned, I owned and sailed an original wooden Herreshoff H-28 for many years in the '70s. I also would sail under mizzen and working jib and found it very useful. I'm definitely considering getting a smaller jib, so thanks for that info as well.
Update on the surveys:
The rigging survey revealed serious corrosion of the mast step and mast. The estimate is $700-$1600 to fix that by removing the mast and installing a new aluminum mast step. Remember, these are Los Angeles prices. Some of this I can probably do myself, since I used to repair yachts professionally in the '70s and '80s.
From the Survey:
"The mast step was cast steel and there is some corrosion showing on the base of the mast where it sits in the step , we have seen lot of issues with this style mast step on other boats ( mainly Columbia's ) recommend un-stepping the mast and having this area looked at and cleaned up . In some of these issues the base of the mast is so corroded in the step that the mast base has to be cut to get the mast out ."
"To un-step the mast and address the corrosion issues and re-step approx $1000 ( plus yard charges ) If a new step needs to be made $600 Replacement of lights and wiring while mast is down $600 ( Led Lights $1000 )
Fit bolt to upper shroud tang $100 New lifelines $750"
Next is the engine survey.
Thanks again to everyone contributing to this discussion.
Johan
Johan
There are several discussion about repairing mast & mast step damage along with prices on the forum.
http://www.pearson365.com/forum/index.php?topic=1259.0
http://www.pearson365.com/forum/index.php?topic=113.0
http://www.pearson365.com/forum/index.php?topic=1160.msg6193#msg6193
Are just a few.. Search the site you will also find several discussions about transmission slippage.
Happy Hunting,
Garner
I have thought about removing the mizzen mast and extending the boom to make a sloop out of our ketch as we seldom use the mizzen anyways/ he problem as I see it is: what do you do about backstay clearance? If someone has a modified ketch to sloop rig, can you tell us if the backstays were moved? if so, what were they tabbed to?
Wayne
Thanks Garner for the references about the mast step and trannie problem. I will check those out.
Johan
Little off topic....What should the rake/angle/tilt of the mizzen mast be? My mizzen boom seems to be angle down near my solar panel and my mast seems to lean backwards a lot. The oat was re rigged with used heavy standing rigging before I got her 2 years ago.