Does anyone have experience using only one or using both? If so, please feel free to describe your idea of how either can be seen as a "requirement".
Thanks,
Mark
I will be installing a Xantrex Prosine 1000W inverter in our catamaran shortly. It's primary job is to provide power for important galley appliances like the Margarita Machine. It can also be used to run our 1 gal shop vac (we have carpet in the main salon), microwave, or whatever we need it to run. Summertime on the gulf coast requires frozen drinks to combat heat exhaustion, even if it is frozen Kool Aid or Gatorade ground up into a slush. Think of it as safety equipment.
We have a 450 A/H battery bank (4- 6V golf cart batteries), 530 watts of solar panels and an Air Breeze wind generator to feed it with.
Phantom has both a generator (3.5kw) and a Heart Interface 2000 watt inverter/charger. The generator came with the boat. We added the inverter/charger for the 4 stage charging capability as well as occasional 120v service while cruising. The generator is used only when we cruise, maybe two 10 to 17 day outtings a year. Our battery bank and frugal electricity usage let us go two to three days between charges and the generator may see use only one or two times a cruise. The generator will let us run the air conditioner when we are in dockage without electricity or tied to the bank on a small stream. We consider the inverter/charger the more "essential" item.
Thanks for your info, guys.
My plans are to sail a comfortable "Jeep" since I don't want a to be out on the blue in a boat full of things that can crap out and will need expensive replacements and/or long waits for the goods. I think this means that (for now at least) using the engine to provide 12v to an inverter, which can be used for 110v consumption, is this correct. I want to cruise as simply as possible without feeling like I'm on the Mayflower.
Any more input would be great. That means you, Ray, since I'm convinced you know pretty much what is genuinely important. ;D
I know what's important to us- something cold to drink.
Remember that an inverter can use a lot of juice depending on what you are running. An appliance that uses 3A on 120 volts is going to use 30A plus losses from the 12V house bank. A 700 watt microwave works out to 5.8A on AC, but it is going to take 58A plus losses through the inverter from the house bank. Do you have a battery monitor? You should consider upgrading your alternator to 100A. You will probably need to upsize the wiring too. What do you want to run?
One of the first things I installed on our boat was the battery monitor so that I could keep up with what was going on with the batteries. I discovered that our 1.7 cu ft fridge pulled 7 amps every minute that it was turned on. No cycling. That's 168 AH a day just to feed that hungry little fridge. We replaced it with a new one the same size, and it pulls 3.5A when it is on and nothing when it cycles off. That change made all the difference. Not sure how much it is actually running, but even if it runs 18 hours a day that is only 63 AH/day. We actually have 2 separate solar systems. There is a pair of 180W panels that go to the house bank through a MPPT charge controller (That charger generates an unbelievable amount of RF interference, but I'm starting to get a handle on that). There is a pair of 85W panels that go to the cranking battery to keep it topped off and divert to the water heater. The 2 battery banks are connected together through a Blue Seas battery combiner. So with the battery combiner in there, we can have all the panels and wind generator going to either battery bank if needed. I have never seen the house bank get low enough for that to happen. Normal operation is the small panels make hot water and the big panels have no problem keeping the house bank charged. I have some pictures, but never learned how to post them. Maybe we can talk Dale into posting them for us.
We have a Heart 2000 watt inverter and love it. Ray is correct that there is the 10 to 1 ratio thing going on (12 volts to 120 volts = a factor of 10) but it is manageable. One nice thing about the inverter is when you plug into shore power, it automatically turns into a battery charger. Our 2000 watt inverter becomes a very smart 100 amp charger, that has the ability to charge conventional wet cells, gells and AGM's all which require a different specific charge voltage and hold voltage. It also will equalize you batteries. Now one might say all your eggs are in one basket so you might want to think a separate battery charger and separate inverter. No one answer is the answer, it just has to work for you.
Having the inverter allows my wife her coffee, fresh brewed when she wants it. For that reason alone, it is worth it. We microwave everything from reheating a slice of pizza, stuff off of the grill, frozen reassembled breakfest sandwiches (neat, quick,easy) to popcorn. There is nothing like fresh microwave popcorn on a nice evening sail and the looks from the other passing boats when they get a whiff is priceless.
The nuker may draw 50 or 60 amps but remember it is for only seconds or at the most 3 or 4 minutes in the case of popcorn. We do not leave the inverter on when it is not required so no electrical draw there. The inverter also allows me to charge my cordless drill battery while under way. I even powered a small soldering iron once. If we are motoring the inverter uses no power so to speak, as it is being replaced by the engine alternator.
We have used the inverter to power a box fan placed over the V-berth hatch or stuck in the weather boards to suck air through the boat all night long which kept the boat nice and cool and in the morning couldn't believe how little the house batteries were affected. We have three #31 Lifeline AMG batteries in our house bank and one #27 Lifeline AGM for our start battery.
As for a generator, if you need AC I guess that is the only way to go. One problem is affordable small generators like the Honda need gasoline which is a safety concern. If you want to go diesel, the bucks are big and the space on a 36 footer is huge and I haven't even mentioned noise. I guess if I ever needed a generator I would lash it down in the dingy and tow it.
Dale
Bay Sailor,I think Ray and Dale are absolutely right in what they have to say about inverters,battery's and how to keep them charged.Every yacht is different mainley because we are all individuals.Some folks weekend cruise some club race others have there boats at a marina for a handy getaway(whorehouse/bar).Still others cruise for a few weeks in the summer while some cruise for months or years at a stretch.You would be hard pressed to find two boats in all these groups with the same equipment aboard and the same electrical needs.If I could ask a few questions I would be glade to give my openion,it's said everybody has one.Were are you headed?How long will you be gone?How many onboard?Will you stay at marinas or on the hook?How mechanically inclined are you?Are you a young person in good physical shape?Are you a minimalist or are you extravagant or something in the middle?How long do you have to prepair the boat? For Michelle and I it has been years of weekending summer cruising and six to seven month cruises to understand what is important to us on the boat.At ages 58 and 54 our plan is to cruise 6to7 months a year and stay at our home the remainder of the year.With financial and family responsibilities we think this will work for us.So we have prepaired our boat to cruise and stay on the hook for that time.Make a plan see what you must have and what you can live without.To do this start with short trips and short time onboard.Increase time and distance onboard until you have a plan.This may take as little time as a few months or over 20 years for us slower ones.The point is to understand what YOU are trying to do with your boat.That will go a long ways in putting the right systems on your boat. There is another option if you have won a multimillion dollar lottery disregard all this BS.Lease yacht and crew for as long as you like. Allen
Amen Incommunicado!
Jim
Quote from: INCOMMUNICADO on July 16, 2012, 02:55:20 PM
Bay Sailor,I think Ray and Dale are absolutely right in what they have to say about inverters,battery's and how to keep them charged.Every yacht is different mainley because we are all individuals.Some folks weekend cruise some club race others have there boats at a marina for a handy getaway(whorehouse/bar).Still others cruise for a few weeks in the summer while some cruise for months or years at a stretch.You would be hard pressed to find two boats in all these groups with the same equipment aboard and the same electrical needs.If I could ask a few questions I would be glade to give my openion,it's said everybody has one.Were are you headed?How long will you be gone?How many onboard?Will you stay at marinas or on the hook?How mechanically inclined are you?Are you a young person in good physical shape?Are you a minimalist or are you extravagant or something in the middle?How long do you have to prepair the boat? For Michelle and I it has been years of weekending summer cruising and six to seven month cruises to understand what is important to us on the boat.At ages 58 and 54 our plan is to cruise 6to7 months a year and stay at our home the remainder of the year.With financial and family responsibilities we think this will work for us.So we have prepaired our boat to cruise and stay on the hook for that time.Make a plan see what you must have and what you can live without.To do this start with short trips and short time onboard.Increase time and distance onboard until you have a plan.This may take as little time as a few months or over 20 years for us slower ones.The point is to understand what YOU are trying to do with your boat.That will go a long ways in putting the right systems on your boat. There is another option if you have won a multimillion dollar lottery disregard all this BS.Lease yacht and crew for as long as you like. Allen
Allen,
Thanks for your response. I tend toward being a minimalist and I am trying to figure out what I will actually need to cruise extensively, both along the California coast, down to Mexico and then to the Pacific islands.
I'm talking to some local trades people as to electrical/electronics needs, but as you can guess they all suggest having pretty much everything that is available. This doesn't work for me in any way. I don't want $10k of stuff that I can live without, just those things that more experience cruisers have discovered must aboard and which can be repaired almost anywhere. My boat is not a luxury motor home, but an often wet and salty transportation system to see the world.
So darn few actual blue water cruisers to talk to, that's why I'm checking with all the guys here on our website. Very few sailors I have know or even heard about actually leave the San Francisco bay where I live and sail.
Mark
I'm thinking seriously about adding a small diesel dc genset. There are several available (although pricy) and I know Rich made his own from a small one cylinder diesel and an alternator. Not sure I want a wind generator vibrating my mizzen and while I'd like to have solar, the flexible panels I could install on my coach roof are fairly expensive. While the Honda and Yamaha generators are effective, I really don't want to carry that much gasoline.
Dirk
Check www.Solatron.com That is where we got our pair of 180w panels and the charge controller. They had a big sale going (3 yrs ago) and I got the panels for 502.00 ea. Retail on those panels was about 1350.00 ea. The charge controller was about 150.00. Shipping was high because the panels were palletized and marked for no top load. There was a shoeprint on the cardboard covering the top panel, but no damage. Total was about 1300.00. They are rated to do 27-30 amps, but I have never seen it. I see 22-23A often. I have seen 16-19A on a very cloudy day. I we had kept our 365, I was planning to mount them out the back of the cockpit over the transom at about the level of the stern rail. Not ideal, but workable. Our panels are 52X32 inches. I have seen panels that size mounted on either side next to the lifelines on a fold out mount too. Just don't forget to fold them down before docking. The advantage of using solar is that once the initial expense is over with, the power is essentially free. Hosing them off once in a while covers most of the maintenance.
Since our boats meet the requirements of a second home, a solar installation is tax deductible. That means the panels, whatever you have to build to mount them, new batteries, charge controller, wire, all of it can be written off. That does help to defray the initial cost of the system. There is no federal deduction for wind generators, but some states may offer something.
Baysailor,
you should have said first you were a minimalist!! The electrical subject is a very interesting one, but a very wide one as well.
So you want to be self sufficient , and actually cruising with a minimum budget and comfort? no problem, I can give you my $.02.
There are 2 schools out there: one that maximizes energy production, and the other one who minimizes energy consumption. There is nothing wrong with either one, but obviously very different advantages and drawback. I recommend you go with the latter.
Here is a simplified chart to prepare the boat:
1. Do you absolutely need your cold beer ?
YES:you are not a minimalist, if anyone interested I can develop this chapter.
NO: warm beer is not that bad after all... great because you won't need a fridge and can go to point 2.
2. Can you use a self steering wind vane, or you'd rather push the button of an autopilot (below deck, it's ok to have a small wheel, or back up below deck) ?
NO for the windvane, autopilot only: you are not minimalist, can develop further, but this chart ends here.
YES for windvane: fantastic! at this point, do you even need electricity !!!! of course, but lets see our options now.
The biggest energy consumers are the fridge and the autopilot. Those with "modern kids" may be in trouble with laptops and all gadgets running all day.
Now, you only need energy for lighting, stereo and some other miscellaneous items (navigation light, plotter, radar, etc..).
In that case, a small 50W or 100W solar panel is your best option in the tropics. You can get a wind generator if you have the $$, but don't rely on it for your power budget (aka no wind in a nice anchorage, and not enough sailing downwind). Definitely don't get a diesel generator!
For the inverter, you can simply get a cheap one (plus one spare) depending on what you want to operate. (usually charging laptops and phone, maybe a coffee grinder, so a 500W or less should be plenty. Forget about the microwave, that's why you have a nice propane range).
As far as battery, I would recommend a AGM or 6V bank, anywhere between 200 and 400 AH, plus a starter battery for the engine.
That was my configuration, during my 4 year cruise in the pacific. I had never used the engine at anchor to recharge the batteries ( a balmar alternator is a good addition though if you have the $$ but not indispensable).
When you do need a cold fridge, put some ice in it, and you'll get close to a week of coldness.
What about caught fish you may ask, do I need a fridge?? NO. Fish can be kept for 2 days using the Polynesian trick. Plenty of time to finish it. If you need more time, you can dry it, although it is not easy.
Good luck to you!
Bay Sailor
I recommend you read and reread the books by the Pardeys. They have made a living, as well as a lifestyle, out of the minimalist approach. They seem to be having a great time as well.
Jim
Quote from: eveningebb on July 17, 2012, 04:28:28 PM
I'm thinking seriously about adding a small diesel dc genset. There are several available (although pricy) and I know Rich made his own from a small one cylinder diesel and an alternator. Not sure I want a wind generator vibrating my mizzen and while I'd like to have solar, the flexible panels I could install on my coach roof are fairly expensive. While the Honda and Yamaha generators are effective, I really don't want to carry that much gasoline.
Dirk
Dirk, I've repeatedly read that the flex panels produce fewer amps and also that they have shorter lives. One mounting solution to rigid panels can be seen here: http://atomvoyages.com/cys/222-the-solar-tracker.html
Ray: It had never occurred to me to get the credits for solar. My boat is my home as well. I'll find out how. Thanks for the tip!
Jim: I just finished Pardey's The Self Sufficient Sailor. Great ideas and philosophy, in my opinion. I intend to leave what I have aboard in place for now, such as the 3-burner with oven, ancient Adler Barbour reefer and a number of other stock items that the boat was shipped with on day-one. I won't spend a dime on a new reefer although I will do what I can to improve the insulation of what I now have, then add shelving for ice. I hope to figure a way to safely store and secure lots of foods in the compartment, but for the present haven't given it much thought.
Zaya: I never liked the taste of beer hot or cold, but whiskey doesn't need refrigeration so I'm fine on that. Although I'm putting in a rebuilt Perkins 4-108 I will definitely be buying a Monitor or other windvane, used if possible, and fully expect it to do all but a little steering. By the way, please tell me/us what windvane you used and what recommendation you would give about it. As for an auto-pilot I think it is wise to have one installed and ready for use as I will either be solo or with a single crew. A very basic unit doesn't seem too expensive although the drain when running is not exactly small. Here is my tentative list of items needing current:
lighting in cabin, running and tri-color, auto pilot, bilge pump, blower for engine compartment, inverter, strobe at masthead, stereo, vhf radio, possibly a small short wave receiver.
People tell me I'm nuts not to want a pressure driven fresh water system, but to me it seems like just one more thing to fix. My thought is high quality hand and foot pumps and rebuild kits. I like the idea of a watermaker but it's way off the budget for me. My 365 will carry around 150 gallons of fresh water (ok, probably not delicious and pure, but there must be an alternative to even the least expensive daily-use watermaker). Wind generator is out also, since solar is a far better idea in my opinion and I don't like the noise they make. I'm thinking of a couple of 65-80w panels mounted above the stern. I have thought about a Honda generator but decided it was just one more thing to worry about and it defeats my idea of having as few things to repair as possible. This decision is not about carry a little gasoline; I think that worry is far, far overblown. As to batteries, I too think I'll go with 6v wet cells if possible, since I can get a car battery almost anywhere in the world if need be. Inverter seems a necessity somehow, but I'm talking to the electrician I'm working with to decide what might be best for me. I work as a carpenter and want a laptop nav system and a few battery powered tools for small jobs along the journey. Naturally, he wants me to buy the best of everything but that idea, as they say, is a dog that don't hunt. Also, I forgot to ask him if he ever cruised extensively. I'll guess he has not. An excellent alternator is a good idea too, although like you say, quite expensive. What's your recommendation?
Last but not least what the heck is the Polynesian fish trick?
Mark
I don't want to derail the direction of the thread, but you did mention a small shortwave reciever. With that, a computer and a cord in between you can download grib files. What are grib files? Satellite weather photos are in grib format. You get the schedule for your part of the world and have at it. http://weather.mailasail.com/Franks-Weather/Grib-File-Viewers Same with weather forecasts. If you get your ham license and go with a transceiver, you can transmit data- email. There are hams that operate gateway stations that give you email access for free. All you need is a General class or better license, a HF radio, and a computer. Check out winlink. http://www.winlink.org/ If you poke around on the winlink site, you will find the list of stations and the frequencies they operate on.
As for cost, It is currently 14.00 to test. If you pass, your license comes in the mail. I took Technician and General the same day, so I got my general for 14.00. There are practice tests here under the resources tab: http://www.qrz.com/ You have to set up an account, but it's free. Work on the practice tests until you can pass them and go test. Your local ham club can set you up with a test session. There is no Code requirement anymore. If I can do it, it ain't that bad. Just something else to kick around...
Ray, this too is info I had not been presented with. There is a HAM operator at my YC who carries on about the ignorant masses invading their sacred and highly technical world. I take this to mean that right about now even guys like you and me can become unwanted citizens. I'll check out the sites you suggest and keep thinking about $$ and where to best spend it since I never have more than about 3% of what I think I need. Thus Lin and Larry.
Mark