Hello everyone - Wondering what the thinking is on the Pearson 365 [ketch] being a bluewater boat? How capable is it offshore? I know skipper must good, but lets just focus on the boat itself. Advantages, disadvantages, personal experiences and tales of others circumnavigating, crossing the ocean, etc. Easy motion, sail balance, experiences with good auto pilots, windvanes, steering with balanced main and mizzen?
How hard will it be to mount a windvane with the mizzen and solar panels on the davits??? Or is there a decent way to get along without a windvane if short handed and heading out across the ocean???
Any and all advice appreciated. About to buy a 1980 365 in MD. Will live aboard and sail the East Coast, then head further afield.
John
the Pearson 365 as Bluewater ? well it depends ...
It depends on what blue water means first! and it depends on what one is willing to trade off.
To me bluewater means:
1. a strong hull, ability to hit stuff offshore, and ability to withstand to sea, in storms and going to weather. Being a fiberglass boat, the Pearson 365 would be above average, it is fairly strong, but you can easily see its limit after 1000 miles against 20 knts. A stiffer hull would be welcome. I do believe it could handle a minor impact, thanks to the shape of the hull and thickness.
2. good sail handling. it is decent for cruising boat. the cutter version probably to be preferred.
3. accomodations: can't be beat for a couple. really good.
4. windvane: yes, solar panels: challenging with the ketch, but can be done
5. skipper skills: probably the most important, but a good boat will probably save your a**.
My personal conclusion, is that the pearson 365 is probably one of the best blue water boat in that category and price range. By no means, I'm saying it is a great blue water boat! There are much better boats out there, but they do cost more and/or are harder to find. I have been very happy with my Pearson 365, but I definitely need another boat for the next adventure.
Hi
I own a 365 called pilgrim,and it is converted to do the atlantic @ pacific crossings,leaving the UK in august
I have two 80w solar pannels and a wind pilot pacific on the stern,see picks under 'bimini photos ketch' inNon-Mechanical System Maintenance and Repair
,http://s950.photobucket.com/albums/ad341/graemek_photo/pearson365/
the standed wind pilot fits ok with the mizen,just have to watch the sail trim if you use moor than a 110% genoa,I have to run with one reef in the main as i have a 150% genoa the mizen is ok as long as you dont sheet it in to hard,if you need foto's of the wind pilot set up let me know,peter forthman at wind pilot has all the info on the pearson 365 setup,I got mine on e-bay for $1000
in my mind a wind vane is a must
Some thoughts on the 365/367 as bluewater boat.
Offshore Characteristics of the Pearson 365/367
I realize the question was not about the 365/367's sailing characteristics but I thought I would add a few additional thoughts to this discussion. Being the nerd I am, I have a tendency to start with the numbers.
The book "Desirable and Undesirable Characteristics of Offshore Yachts" by the Technical Committee of the Cruising Club of America is good read on this topic and talks about construction, features, and other considerations of an offshore or blue water boat.
The committee's number one concerns revolved around capsizing. Their focused first a boat's resistance to capsizing and second a boat's ability to right itself should it capsize. To this end they focused on several numbers.
First Capsize Screen Formula (CSF)
The Capsize Screening Formula is a somewhat controversial figure. It came into being after the 1979 Fastnet race in England where a storm shredded the race fleet. The Cruising Club of America (CCA) technical committee analyzed race boat data and came up with this formula to compare boats based on readily available data. A lower value is supposed to indicate a boat is less likely to capsize. A value of 2 is taken as a cut off for acceptable to certain race committees. However this is an arbitrary cutoff based on the performance of boats in the '79 Fastnet. The CSF takes no account of hull shape or ballast location. The CCA characterizes the formula as "rough". But still one of the most commonly used factors for comparing boats
The Pearson 365/7's CSF is 1.76
Next the Angle of Vanishing Stability (AVS)
This is the resistance to capsize and heel. One of the best predictors of ultimate stability is the "angle of vanishing stability" or the angle to which the boat can heel and still right itself. A dingy will have a stability range of about 80 degrees, an inland water boat should have a stability range of 100 degrees, and an offshore boat of at least 120 degrees. Boats which have a stability angle of less than 140 degrees may be left floating upside down once capsized. Boats with a higher angle will usually right themselves.
The Pearson 365/7's AVS is approx. 150
Finally, the Displacement to Length Ratio (D/L)
D/L Ratio is the displacement to length ratio. This indicates if the boat is a heavy cruiser (results greater than 325) or a light displacement racing boat (results less than 200). Traditional wisdom called for offshore cruising boats to have a D/L closer to 300 than 200.
The Pearson 365/7's D/L is 293
Next the committee talked about steering and rudder design. After capsizing the next most important issue was loss of steering due to rudder failure. The committee felt that keel or skeg hung rudders were preferred for offshore boats.
Pearson's rudder is skeg hung.
Construction
Now I will provide my thoughts on the construction of the Pearson 365. Anyone that has had their rigging replaced will already know that it is heavier than similar size boats... Nice
Next the hull and deck are both heavier than similar boats. Nice
The boat is built with a liner that is well tabbed to the hull and has a solid bulkhead separating the cabin from the engine area. Once again. nice.
The hull to deck joint has already been discussed and while strong enough could be improved by through bolting with screws and bolts not sheet metal screws. However, our boat actually has the deck glassed to the hull.
Another area of concern is the installation of the ports and hatches. Both the hatches and the ports on Sea Dragon are not through bolted but held in place with sheet metal screws and adhesive. I would suggest that through bolting with screws & nuts would be an improvement in construction... Also better quality ports would be in order for Sea Dragon.
Next the cockpit
The cockpit could use a second set of drains aft, also mentioned in other threads. Next the cockpit lockers are not water tight by any means and should the vessel roll or hit with a large wave there is a chance that large amounts of water could/would enter the boat. So sealing the lockers would be good move.
Other weak points on the boat... First there is the issue of the deep sump in the aft portion of the keel.. This strikes me as an area of risk and should be filled in some way.. Next there is no water tight compartment in the bow.... A simple and reasonable modification would be to modify the anchor locker so that it becomes a water tight compartment should there be collision. This would fall in the area of construction.
Just my thoughts for what it is worth.
Garner
Garner,
Thanks very much for providing so much useful and interesting information to us all. I too have done quite a bit of reading and researching before buying my sloop, and although I would have preferred a cutter there wasn't one to even consider anywhere nearby. Still, in all my searches and conversations I invariably felt convinced that our Pearsons are an entirely good choice for ocean cruising for all the reasons you've mentioned. While never touted as "the best" in any single technical or practical way I too think I've made a good purchase and that I will be safe and comfortable in all but the worst/most dangerous conditions.
I hope that you and others will discuss why the deep sump might be a problem. Are you referring to the bilge? I have thought that it would be a good idea as it allows for more than one pump and would therefore provide a buffer against filling and overflowing onto the cabin floor.
Also, how would one make the chain locker airtight? Sounds very smart.
Do you have suggestions for better portlights might be that would not require "remodeling"?
Mark
Mark,
When I mentioned the sump I was referring to the deep (much worst on the cutter) bilge in the aft portion of the keel. My concern is that this area is the weakest part of the keel and could be damaged in a hard grounding.
As for the ports I have started the process upgrading Sea Dragon by replacing the opening ports with SS NFM ports. This is an easy replacement and many of the people on this site have made the swap.
http://www.sailingseadragon.com/Ports.htm
I am very happy with them... I have not come up with an answer I really like for the fixed ports but Leo's (Sol) approach is the one I like the most but for the $$$$$:(
Dale has taken different approach that is very interesting.
Garner
Thanks very much for documenting your work; will come in very handy when I get things squared away with engine and plumbing.
Mark
The sump bothers me too, thinking of filling some sort of marine foam and glassing over the top leaving room for pumps. Any other thoughts? And I don't regret the $$ for the NFM ports. They look good and it would take a big hit to break them.
I have or maybe had a book on fitting out an offshore boat, can't seem to find it right now. I think John Vigor is the author, it has a lot of good info and a questioner to rate your boat for offshore work. The cutter scored well. The book shows you how to make a boat seaworthy some boats take more work than others. He has a section on how a Catalina 27 evolved into a around the work boat.
Leo
Thanks everybody for the great info.
Is there anyone out there who has taken a 365 across the ocean to give their 2 cents? Or does anyone know of people who have?
Thanks again,
John
John
Go to www.sailingseadragon.com , then "Adventures" scroll down and you will find accounts of two boats that have crossed several oceans.
Enjoy
Garner
Quote from: Johnzion on June 23, 2012, 03:03:55 PM
Thanks everybody for the great info.
Is there anyone out there who has taken a 365 across the ocean to give their 2 cents? Or does anyone know of people who have?
Thanks again,
John
John, I believe the book you seek is Vigor's "Seaworthy Offshore Sailboat: A Guide to Essential Features, Handling, and Gear".
Mark
Garner,Thanks for all the great information it reminded me of some of the reasons I purchased Incommunicado twentyfive years ago.To anyone else please don't tell me that a 365 isn't a blue water boat.That would give me and the boat something extra to worry about.After thinking and treating her like a blue water boat all these years.I am fiftyeight now and she is thirtysix,she can still take a lot more than I can.Use your head pick your battles, I think she will take you anywere you would like to go. Allen
hi
if you can wait for a replie.. ;D i am leaving the UK in august to cross the atlantic to the carib then thro the panama to cross the pacific ,if i dont post next year...not a good boat then ;D ;D
ocean pilgrim
http://www.mahina.com/cruise.html There's a list of capable boats at the bottom of the page.
Has anyone added larger cockpit scuppers aft? That seems to me to be the biggest weakness. The Dorades should replaced with ones that can be closed from inside the boat. The lazeretts worry me more than any other component. I intend to install that latches with levers to pull the seat down. The boat also lacks adaquate latches to keep the groceries in the lockers and the wine in the bilge.
I suggest that anyone interested in seaworthiness consult "Seaworthiness, The Forgotten Factor" by CA Marchaj. Marchaj has the very best explanations about why one boat is more seaworthy than another. He picks apart the committee's report and accuses them of ignoring the elephant in the room: Size. He also discusses the movement of water columns and molecular effect of water on different shaped hulls. He has lots of math for those who want to see the numbers. His explanations and illustrations are the best.
The cut-away of the keel will cause the bow to rise out of the water if it strikes a submerged object head on. And the hull at this point is very thick, little chance of damage. In the navy we once spent a hole day shooting holes in ship to make a fish habitat. The ship did not sink because the holes were above the water line.
The Pearson 365 is not blue water boat as built but I intend to make an Atlantic Crossing in mine once it is ready.
have added two 2" drains to cockpit,as you say a must
also fitted seals to the cockpit lids,cockpit will fill with water must be water tight,also washboards need securing,hatch needs bolt to stop it opening when surfing down waves
anchor must have pin to lock it in the bow roller to stop it getting thrown back over coach roof in big seas
S/V Rocky,I did have a concern about the volume of water the cockpit could hold and how much time it would take to drain.We were in on the edge of the stream wind northeast about twenty with very confused sea conditions when a wave invited it's self aboard over the starboard quarter.This all happened so fast all I could do was watch.We had two wash boards in place cockpit lockers latched and I was hand steering.What I saw was the cockpit fill to about half way up the lower washboard ,cockpit cushions floating and everything else in the cockpit washed about.The best I can estimate it took between thirty to fifty secends to drain the half filled cockpit.No damage at all.This made me think how to add more drainage.Looking at the 1 1/2 seacocks that have 1 1/16 drain capacity there must be another way.I got some fiberglass exhaust tubing 2.75" dia.Cut a hole in the after wall of the cockpit and cut through the transom and glassed the tube in at a downward angle.Now I have more than twice the drain capacity. I hope this helps Allen
Graemek,
Nice addition... The day we took delivery of Sea Dragon we were moving her to her new berth motoring into nasty wind and waves when I heard a terrible crash and pounding sound coming from the bow. I moved forward to find our 35# CQR had bounced off the anchor roller and was bashing against the port side. To this day we have noticeable area on the port bow were anchor made it mark. The very first boat project was to add a bail at the roller and a chain lock to hold the anchor in place.
Pinning the washboards and adding a bolt to the hatch are projects on our list as well..
Thanks,
Garner
Great comments and suggestions on the scuppers. I will look into that.Thanks also for the link to look up.
Allen, where did you glass in the tube? Near seat level? Or lower?
How does everybody find the 365 sails in light airs and heavy winds/big seas??????
We did the sea trial a few days ago, had 6 knots of wind, boat was going along at 3 knots. Thought that was pretty good. But I have no experience of this boat in heavy weather.
Johnzion,I put the drain about an inch off the deck.I have pictures I will try agin to post them. Allen
I just returned (Saturday) a Leopard 43 catamaran from Tortola, BVI to Norfolk, VA. We followed TS Debbie up the coast. Would I have wanted to be in my 365? In a word, NO! However, with that said, in today's tech world being in bad weather is more a matter of poor planning than anything else. A 365 will go the distance if you are careful with your weather windows. My best suggestion is to spend the $ on Sirrius Sat Weather, a sat phone, all the safety gear you can possibly afford and plenty of dramamine. Lastly, it also depends on your def of "bluewater". Sailing across the Atlantic or Pacific Oceans is a bluewater experience. Sailing the "thornypath" to the Caribbean is not and can easily be accomplished in a 365, if you properly plan and are careful. My $.02.
Randy, I'm curious to know what makes you say the 365 would not be as safe as the catamaran ? In a storm, a catamaran is the last place I want to be, I personally know of a 50 footer catamaran who flipped in calm water (3-4 foot chop) ,with williwaw wind probably gusting to 40-50. I just can't imagine what would happen to a catamaran in a storm a sea (by storm, I mean breaking seas, and the associated wind).
As far as the 365, I've been in some minor conditions (50kt. with some breaking seas). The boat behave quite well, I have done both laying ahull and running.
Running with bare poles, I would get 5-6 knot, and reasonable control. I wish I had the cutter, so I could have rigged a tiny stormsail, not for power, but for directional stability. Some big waves would sometimes throw me beam to the sea, not great! However, the 365 does not surf easily enough, and that's probably why I would not push the 365. As I believe, that when the breaking seas gets bigger, quickly taking on a surf is the way to minimize impact and taking on water aboard.
Laying ahull, also works OK. I laid ahull many times, when running with the storm was inconvenient. Of course, only lay ahull, after making sure the seas won't knock the boat down. I noticed that, the 365 glide gently when hit by a breaking sea, and I think this is due the the shallow keel which offer very little resistance, a very good counterintuitive feature for heavy weather tactics, which is why I now believe centerboarders (like Jimmy Cornell's Aventura 3) is a very good design, although upwind performance suffers.
To sum up, here is what I have done in bad weather, with a ketch, 130% genoa (way too big by the way!), main ,mizzen:
25-30kts: not technically a storm, but let's say the wind is coming from where you want to go: heave to, with double reefed-main and rolled up genoa
30-40kts: the boat heels too much with previous configuration, so heave-to with mizzen only
40-50kts: again, the boat will heel too much with only the mizzen, so lay ahull or run
50kts+: definitely run with bare pole
60kts+: never been there !!!
I'll be curious to know what other 365 owners do in bad weather.
Phil
as zaya +1 ;D
have not been offshore in more than 45 knot wind ,i have a storm jib on an inner fore stay and a storm try-sail instead of the main as i find the main is just to big and i have 4 reef points,the try-sail is set above the boom so is quite high up this does induce more list but the north Atlantic where i sail has short sharp seas and i find i loose steering way in the troughs,but i do use a Jordan series drogue to control the speed down wind
Zaya, that's not what I said. There were plenty of times I did not want to be on the Cat.
Personally, I think the 365 is a great Caribbean cruiser. But, I would not try to force a square peg in a round hole. There are much better "blue water" boats out there. I guess you can spend lots of treasure on outfitting a 365 for Atlantic crossing, but all I was saying is that I would use the boat for what Bill Shaw designed it to be, a Bahama/Caribbean cruising boat. I would spend my treasure on ALL the safety gear I could afford and use the boat as it was intended.
Great advice everyone . . . .
Zaya - thank you for the breakdown of what you do at certain wind speeds. Qustion -if I understand you, you would like to be able to go fast enough to surf down waves when the wind and seas are heavy. Is that correct? I thought surfing was dangerous, because of possibility of losing control, turning sideways, etc. Don't know myself, so interested in your, and others, thoughts on this.
Randy - point well taken. I hear what you are saying. Thank you.
BTW - I posted another question/post about if P365 hulls are balsa cored or not. If you have any input, please check it out [find under 'cored hulls or solid glass?'].
John
hi johnzion
That is why i use a series drogue this slows the boat down,you adjust it so you just stay ahead of the breaking waves but not go so fast as to risk pitch polling in to the next wave,only problem i have with it is you can not use it near the coast or near other craft as the trail of drogue's is 150mtrs long as it picks up on the preceding wave
To surf or not to surf, that is the question ?
I'm afraid one will have to try for himself what he considers the safest, with his particular boat. This can be a whole subject of its own.
And to be honest, I don't believe one should take the 365 in these conditions voluntarily (aka sailing the high latitudes, or in stormy waters without checking the weather (and note that the weather is not 100% predictable, even with today's technology).
The 365 is just too flimsy to take that kind of beating, and still be in good shape afterwards; it will probably survive, but I'll expect to see structural damage at the bulkheads and deck joint. And the constant flexing of the hull will also surely put a lot of wear on the rig due to metal fatigue. why inflict such treatment to the 365?
Surfing allows escaping the breaking sea. The skipper will have to negotiate each and every wave, it is very tiring. Plus the boat may not take on the surf fast/easily enough. My understanding is that surfing is the safest option, and it suits best modern design (fin keel, centerboards, etc)
Now if you can't apply proper surfing (aka the boat won't surf good enough; the skipper/crew is tired; it's at night, and the sea is just too confused), then the drogue technique is probably the best bet.
This being said, Randy is right, the 365 is not a true bluewater boat, and should not be taken in area where heavy storms are likely. Atlantic or Pacific crossings ? yes, no problem. High latitudes ? NO.
Quote from: Leo on June 21, 2012, 09:16:38 PM
The sump bothers me too, thinking of filling some sort of marine foam and glassing over the top leaving room for pumps. Any other thoughts? And I don't regret the $$ for the NFM ports. They look good and it would take a big hit to break them.
I have or maybe had a book on fitting out an offshore boat, can't seem to find it right now. I think John Vigor is the author, it has a lot of good info and a questioner to rate your boat for offshore work. The cutter scored well. The book shows you how to make a boat seaworthy some boats take more work than others. He has a section on how a Catalina 27 evolved into a around the work boat.
Leo
Hey everyone...I have been off the site for a while...I just almost sunk my 365 with the sump opened on a hard grounding. I broke several of my own rules...I had sea tow and the tide in my favor if I had waited for either.......I was on a pivotal hard rock directly under the sump. I let a gung-ho big power boater put a line on the boat and ignore my instructions. Hence, proceeded to pull me in a circle twice like a top. By the time I got the line off the hidden damaged was done. The tide lighted and sea-tow nudge me off easily. I notice the auto-bilge cycling but did not pay attention. I had to get grand kids home by dark so I rushed off after minor stowing of gear. I returned the next day to stow sails and check dock lines. I did not hear the pump cycling about every 30 minutes.
Three days later when the starting battery that I had the auto pump connected to died. My shore charger was on the house bank running my refrigeration. The water in the bilge got high enough to compromise the work I was doing on the galley sink. I had the drain that goes to the cockpit drain disconnected. The vessel was going down by the bow. Quickly. The marina manager notice the changing water line and stuck a huge bilge pimp in her and restored the water line. After frantic trip to the marina, I cranked the Perkins and motored for 2 minutes to the lift and hauled the vessel. Finding the gash in the layers of glass on the keel. So you can sink you boat if you do not use common sense and due diligence.
So, after repairing the keel and adding 2 inches of clothe and glass in the bottom of the sump and a new bottom job, in the water with a dry sump.
I had to drain the v-drive...transmission...motor oils.
My question is what was suggested in the thread......filling the sump and sealing it at a smaller area for the sump pumps. What material would the members suggest using to fill the compartment. Open to suggestions......heed this and do not do what I did........billy
Hey everyone...I have been off the site for a while...I just almost sunk my 365 with the sump opened on a hard grounding. I broke several of my own rules...I had sea tow and the tide in my favor if I had waited for either.......I was on a pivotal hard rock directly under the sump. I let a gung-ho big power boater put a line on the boat and ignore my instructions. Hence, proceeded to pull me in a circle twice like a top. By the time I got the line off the hidden damaged was done. The tide lighted and sea-tow nudge me off easily. I notice the auto-bilge cycling but did not pay attention. I had to get grand kids home by dark so I rushed off after minor stowing of gear. I returned the next day to stow sails and check dock lines. I did not hear the pump cycling about every 30 minutes.
Three days later when the starting battery that I had the auto pump connected to died. My shore charger was on the house bank running my refrigeration. The water in the bilge got high enough to compromise the work I was doing on the galley sink. I had the drain that goes to the cockpit drain disconnected. The vessel was going down by the bow. Quickly. The marina manager notice the changing water line and stuck a huge bilge pimp in her and restored the water line. After frantic trip to the marina, I cranked the Perkins and motored for 2 minutes to the lift and hauled the vessel. Finding the gash in the layers of glass on the keel. So you can sink you boat if you do not use common sense and due diligence.
So, after repairing the keel and adding 2 inches of clothe and glass in the bottom of the sump and a new bottom job, in the water with a dry sump.
I had to drain the v-drive...transmission...motor oils.
My question is what was suggested in the thread......filling the sump and sealing it at a smaller area for the sump pumps. What material would the members suggest using to fill the compartment. Open to suggestions......heed this and do not do what I did........billy
glad it all turned out ok,filled mine half way up with cement then glassed over the top with 5 layers then replaced bilge pump in top half of sump
Is there some specail kind of cement?
there are water prof cement's but i just use'd a bag of cement that i had got in to mend the fence ,mixed it with 3-1 sharp sand,1- being the cement,
if you go this route dont use to much water of it will crack when drying just enough to make it stand up
Hello Rocky, choose the right season and you'll enjoy it. Crossing the ocean is not a big deal then and slightly boring. Tilikum is mostly standard as when we bought her new in 1980. Came from the USA. Been up and down the Med and Biscay between Holland and Turkey twice, including force 8 in Biscay. She handles nice! For your info. Have a proper sea anchor and you need at least 200 feet anchor chain of 8 mm. If you cannot weigh anchor with a manual winch anymore you might be getting old for the job (I'm 70). We are in the Red Sea at the moment, going North here is nastier than the Atlantic.
Have fun.
John