Author Topic: Toerail Design/Dimensions  (Read 12467 times)

PeteW

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Toerail Design/Dimensions
« on: February 03, 2011, 06:50:22 PM »
I have looked at all of Dales picture and searched all the descriptions of the 3 pieces of wood that make up the toerail in the Pearson 365 Ketch, but I'm afraid I still have no idea of what it is made up of. (My Pearson doesn't even have Genoa Tracks at this time.) So I'm attaching a drawing (pdf) of a possible design for the toerail stack-up cross section. There is an inside toerail, a 3/4" thick cap piece and an outside vertical rub rail piece.  The cap bend will be tricky so it may be done as a 3 piece laminate that gets bent and glued up.  I'm planning to use African Mahogany as its 1/4 the price of teak. Mahogany is a better wood to bend I am told. It has a straighter grain than teak.

Any feed back would be appreciated. I may be way off from whats stock on this design but I'm not trying to match or duplicate anything.

Thanks

Pete W

RayNWanda

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Re: Toerail Design/Dimensions
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2011, 07:10:11 PM »
We have a 1979 parts list. They list a set of toerails, teak for $443.25.  The part number is 69197. I'd sure like to take them up on that one.
Safari
Palacios, Tx.
Prout Snowgoose 37

Jim Cozy

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Re: Toerail Design/Dimensions
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2011, 11:18:57 AM »
Pete- My toerail is 3 pieces, but there are 2 on top, each half the width, with a third on the outside. There is no inside piece as in your drawing. There are 2 on top to facilitate edge-setting them (bending the wide dimension) to the curve of the rail. One three inch wide board would not want to bend easily; this is also the reason the boards are thin. a better solution (and traditional) would be to use thicker, wider boards cut to the curve with scarf joints joining them. Takes a bunch more wood and skill, and that didn't fit the economics of the pearson company at that time. If I were replacing my toerails, I would go with the traditional as it is cleaner, easier to care for and less susceptable to splitting. However, mine are 22 years old and still in decent shape, so Pearson didn't get it too wrong. Jim
Jim Cozy
SV Talaria, Sloop #284

Dale Tanski

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Re: Toerail Design/Dimensions
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2011, 05:14:43 PM »
Pete,

Tomorrow I will head out to the barn and measure up my toe rail and post a drawing for you.  The stock design does not have the inner piece as you show for several reasons. 

The first is that the dimension between the outer hull surface and the inner bulwarks varies from fore to aft and for that matter in between.  Your three piece design does not easily allow for the variations of that dimension. 

The second reason is that the angle of the inside bulwarks changes as you head toward the bow.  It flattens out the farther forward you go.

I love African mahogany.  It does not work quite as well as teak does, but doesn't eat your tools the way the silica in teak does.  Often it will chunk out when planing.  It is also much more brittle which is probably why it chunks.  That being said it is hard to beat for appearance and color.  It is one of the few woods that get lighter with age when exposed to sunlight. It looks wonderful when varnished and as you said, much more affordable.  I would not say that it bends easier than teak due to its brittleness.  You seldom will hear it crack while bending, it tends to just snap. 

The reason I would not personally use it for a toe rail is that if it ever became exposed it will grey just like teak, however it will not color back up with any type of cleaner as teak does.  Mahogany is rot resistant, but teak will be there long after the mahogany is just dust.

Like I said I will put on my mukluks and head out to the barn in the morning.

Dale
"Maruska"
Pearson 365 Cutter Ketch
1976 Hull #40
Buffalo, N.Y.

Dale Tanski

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Re: Toerail Design/Dimensions
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2011, 01:24:29 PM »
Here is the toerail with estimated dimensions adjusted for years of wear.

My top section is down to approximately 1/2" thick.  The groove down the center on mine is 1/4" wide although I regroved my boat using a router and rebedded the black caulk. The top built in two separate pieces allows the bending.

The hull to deck joint is accurate as depicted.

Dale Tanski
"Maruska"
Pearson 365 Cutter Ketch
1976 Hull #40
Buffalo, N.Y.

PeteW

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Re: Toerail Design/Dimensions
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2011, 04:24:58 PM »
Dale,

Thanks,  that clears up all the confusion regarding the toerail stack-up. Note that on my boat the only through bolts from deck to hull are through the genoa track. The toe rail is sandwiched in these spots, 30 bolts each side. The rest is sheet metal screws.  From your advise I've opted to spend the money for teak.

The real challenge in installing the toerail for me is logistics.  The boats in the water, and I can't set up the required steamers, table saws and etc at my marina. So I need to do all my fabrication in my shop and drive the parts ready to install out to San Diego.

By fabricating I mean either pre-bent and glued up  or precut cap rails sections with scarf joints ready to go all 4" wide.  To investigate the dimesons of these sections, I imported the top view drawing from Seadragons web site into Autocad to scale (36.5' LOA) and snapped some arcs port, starboard from bow to stern. The circles lined up perfectly along the the entire Length of the imported drawing. The conclusion, no compound curves. 

Turns out the toerail is a constant arc of radius 46.7' along its the entire length. I compared this to actual dimensions taken along the beam with a string and ruler.  The imported Pearson 365 top view drawing appears to match.  Incidentally the stern is  an arc of radius 11'.    Here's a handy tool for calculating the radius from various sections of arcs measured along the deck if anyone else finds this interesting.

http://www.handymath.com/cgi-bin/rad2.cgi?submit=Entry

Pete Weisskopf,  Pearson 365 Ketch  #6






Dale Tanski

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Re: Toerail Design/Dimensions
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2011, 06:21:24 PM »
Pete,
All very interesting.  I like the link.
 
Working at the marina is bad enough but working while on the water is real bad.  I guess it can be done but you better figure a helper and a few lost clamps. 

You are correct, the toe rail only contains the machine screws at the tracks, the rest is sheetmetal type screws.  It should be noted that there appears to be a layer of cloth in between the deck lip and the hull lip so it would make sense that the hull to deck lip are bonded.

Keep in mind the cap gets wider up forward so a 4" wide piece from stern to bow won't really do it.  It appears that only the forward 12 or so feet widen up.  You could keep the outside cap half the same width and only vary the inside piece. If you left it a bit wide you could trim it with a router and a pattern bit to match the actual width.

If I were making the cap I would be tempted to modify the factory design just a little bit.  See attached for the change.

The overhang would act as a drip edge and minimize the water trying to get up underneath when sitting at the dock.  The only downside besides the extra work would be spiders would find any gap a welcome home.

Dale
"Maruska"
Pearson 365 Cutter Ketch
1976 Hull #40
Buffalo, N.Y.

PeteW

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Re: Toerail Design/Dimensions ***Pictures ****
« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2011, 05:43:48 PM »
I opted to toss out the original toerail design of glued up and bent strips for what I was told was the preferred shipwright's approach which is full width planks cut to the required arc. Using a paper tempate made from the 43 1/2 ' radius arc I cut the outside dimensions on 13' planks on  a band saw. After block planing the outside edge the inside cut was done using the rip fence set to 3 7/8" on the band saw.

I was so impressed with the look of these extra wide toerails that I pulled up the work done by the PO and will install them the full length. This last minute decision explains the odd looking scarf joint.  








The rosewood bungs add a nice look too. I'm doing this job in African Mahogany so I decided to varnish this wood immediately as its not as durable as teak.

I'm using fileden as my server. Its free but its also a snakepit of malware. I wanted to see if anyones isp blocks it before I add any new pictures.


Pete W.  busy restoring the old 365 Ketch hull #6
« Last Edit: April 12, 2014, 12:24:02 PM by PeteW »

Dale Tanski

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Re: Toerail Design/Dimensions
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2011, 08:29:43 AM »
Pete.

Looking good!
The rail came out great.  What did you find directly under the cap?  Was the factory cap bedded in silicone?
Looks wonderfull.

Dale
"Maruska"
Pearson 365 Cutter Ketch
1976 Hull #40
Buffalo, N.Y.

PeteW

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Re: Toerail Design/Dimensions
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2011, 01:18:16 PM »
Dale,
Thanks for your vote of encouragement. Based on this "before" picture you may begin to realize why some of my non-sailing buddies think I am insane.



Also note the chain plate broken clean off, the furring strips screw nailed down as replacement toerails, and the dangling genoa track. This was the condition both port and starboard. My "to do" list is 3 pages long and growing. I bought this boat without a survey being done as I new it would simply be a waste of money. I had to chuckle to myself to hear that Ted's survey included a burned out spreader light. My spreader lights are empty rusted buckets. BTW, welcome to the club, Ohana  and Ted Goodhue.

Here is an after picture of where the Genoa track needs to be put back.



The winch drums were plated by Kerr Plating in Glendale AZ. He came highly recommended by the hot-rod crowd. Under the cap there are flathead SS sheet metal screws every 8" or so. This attaches the deck to the hull. Its a flat surface. I put a bead of 5200 on the inside and outside edge and around the 30 holes that are drilled for each genoa track. (I now know all the tricks to getting the the tracks out. Truth be told there are no real tricks. It's simply a pain but the Pearson interior is somewhat designed to be removed.)

Pete

« Last Edit: April 12, 2014, 01:13:35 PM by PeteW »