Author Topic: Please tell me Im Crazy  (Read 628 times)

ZULU40

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Please tell me Im Crazy
« on: July 12, 2019, 10:58:53 AM »
I want to replace the formica interior in Zaya, while the bones of it are ok, the stuff looks terrible.
Its in walnut and is very dark, I thought I might use thick veneer or ply to change all that. And while Im at it make a few changes to the layout.
Just to add walnut and white really doesnt work well

In the illustration the shower is largely removed and the bulkheads and lounges/berths port and stbd levelled up.
Thicker cushions and new covers to renew the 40 yr old ones I have now. The pilot berth which is never used will be deleted and the seat/berth widened to take some extra depth.
The shower becomes a pocket for shower controls and a place to stow the curtain and let it drain.
The engine relocation is likely but not this year, Im so sick of diving in and out of sail lockers. So shortening the shaft and replacing the engine mounts, rebuilding cabinetry for easy access.
Im also less concerned about the quarter berth although having used one before I prefer forward nav tables. Of all things here sans the engine I think thats the most work

Next year I have to repaint the hull, and eventually the cabin and decks as there are a number of cracks and holes that should be properly filled first.
That will be the time to replace the hatches and portlights which arent functioning well ATM.

I know the standing shower is popular among Pearson owners, but am I completely crazy in taking the opportunity to make the saloon more comfortable?
any comments are welcome though, and Im not easily offended so dont hold back





« Last Edit: July 12, 2019, 02:08:53 PM by ZULU40 »
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P69

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Re: Please tell me Im Crazy
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2019, 11:53:48 PM »
You're crazy... maybe.  Why not just rough up and paint the formica? adding another layer means you might have to redo the molding, depending on the thickness of your new veneer.

Remove Shower:   If you remove the shower, where will you store the wet foul weather gear?  I like the shower because when showering, the entire head compartment doesn't get wet (wet counter, wet toilet paper, wet everything).

What do you not like about the current layout of the settees? 

Your diagram has the table over the cabin sole hatches. How will you support the table and maintain access to the bilge?  I also don't  like the table because, when deployed, the passage fore and aft past the table is kinda tight. I  don't know where I'll put the table. Maybe same place, but shorten it by 25% and make a better leg because the one I have is easy to kick out and collapse the table. 

Sea berth:  My 367 never had a sea berth and I've seen many 365s with no sea berth, so not crazy for converting that into storage.

Quarter Berth:  good idea, I'm slowly making one.
Fwd nav: good idea, I am making one.

Move Engine: maybe maybe crazy idea.  When you move the engine forward, how will that affect this proposed layout, esp. access into the quarter berth?  What about access into and out of the galley? Will the bottom of the companionway steps be too close to the fridge cabinet for easy ingress/egress for galley?  The entire last 10' of the hull has 3/4" plywood on edge glassed-in. One per side running fore and aft. These might be structural stringers to spread the weight of the engine and fuel tank.  If true and if you move the engine forward, how will you strengthen the part of the hull under the new location of the engine?  How can you ascertain whether or not the hull in the area to which you move the engine will need any kind of reinforcement?

If you move the engine forward, will it be far enough for the gear box to block access to the stuffing box? It's already hard enough to get to the stuffing box as it is with the jack shaft in the way.  The angle of the jack shaft will be steeper, will that new angle be too much for the gear box and/or the v drive? I guess it depends on how far forward you plan to move the engine. 

Instead of moving the engine, consider rebuilding the cabinetry so that pieces are completely removable.  I am rebuilding that cabinet are so all the pieces are removable, from Quarter berth to the sink counter: completely open. When I replaced the fuel tank, I redesigned it to be shorter (fore and aft dimension). Now I can easily get to the raw water pump and alternator.  To maintain the 50 gallons, I widened the tank a bit.  As it is now, I can get to all parts of the engine from the companionway, except for the aft-facing plane of the engine. I have to descent into the port locker to mess with the raw water impeller and I have to descend into the stbd locker to inspect/change alternator belt.  Everything else, including the thermostat, I can reach from the companionway and almost all injectors have no obstruction above them.

Another thing you can do is modify the forward end cockpit sole to increase the engine head room. That is what Maruska had when Dale bought it.

https://pearson365.com/forum/index.php?topic=156.0

Look carefully at the picture captioned, "Once the engine was in rough..."  you will see that the cockpit sole has been cut back to the cockpit drains.  I think the attached files are Dale's boat, showing the cockpit/engine area modification.

If I think of any other potential problems, I'll let you know.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2019, 12:03:09 AM by P69 »

ZULU40

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Re: Please tell me Im Crazy
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2019, 05:40:48 AM »
You're crazy... maybe.  Why not just rough up and paint the formica? adding another layer means you might have to redo the molding, depending on the thickness of your new veneer.

Ive seen a few online, and Im impressed by some attempts at fake wood, but it gets less convincing the more fakery one has. Another famous couple with a similar 36 online painted theirs white, I dont like that either. So I dont know, maybe Im just not thinking of the right colours but I shall think about it. With veneer or ply you are at least dealing with real wood.

Remove Shower:   If you remove the shower, where will you store the wet foul weather gear?  I like the shower because when showering, the entire head compartment doesn't get wet (wet counter, wet toilet paper, wet everything).


Zaya has a wet locker by the main hatch for foul weather gear, but it is too small. Theres still a remnant pocket left in the shower about 8" deep where gear can be hung, and a shower curtain (see semi circle thats probably too small) to protect the rest of the head. Its impractical without a curtain, and it has to be sized right. I cant deny the shower would be worse, but its only like 2 mins a day.

What do you not like about the current layout of the settees?
the stagger between the two just feels so odd as to make me completely uncomfortable. If ppl are on the forward end of each seat they cant see each other. Its one of those things that didnt annoy me so much at first but now bugs the crap out of me. I sat in the cabin of a 32' boat with symmetric layout and nearly died of envy. Want ! It also helps justify better cushions etc.

Your diagram has the table over the cabin sole hatches. How will you support the table and maintain access to the bilge?  I also don't  like the table because, when deployed, the passage fore and aft past the table is kinda tight. I  don't know where I'll put the table. Maybe same place, but shorten it by 25% and make a better leg because the one I have is easy to kick out and collapse the table.

Yeah I think the diagram might be confusing the 36' cutter layout, dont know. The table on the 365 isnt great, I'll either go without and use trays, or rig a short two leaf table attached aft of the mast. No leg to the sole, maybe a diagonal brace back to the base of the mast. Probably something like 3ft long

Sea berth:  My 367 never had a sea berth and I've seen many 365s with no sea berth, so not crazy for converting that into storage.

Quarter Berth:  good idea, I'm slowly making one.
Fwd nav: good idea, I am making one.


Its a big job though as it crosses a few systems like engine starter battery, usefulness of the stbd locker, pressure water system. Hot water system. Still I envy those who already have it. At the end of the day if it was just about stowage I'd likely do something easier. But forward navs are more natural to use so thats on the list come what may.

Move Engine: maybe maybe crazy idea.  When you move the engine forward, how will that affect this proposed layout, esp. access into the quarter berth?  What about access into and out of the galley? Will the bottom of the companionway steps be too close to the fridge cabinet for easy ingress/egress for galley?  The entire last 10' of the hull has 3/4" plywood on edge glassed-in. One per side running fore and aft. These might be structural stringers to spread the weight of the engine and fuel tank.  If true and if you move the engine forward, how will you strengthen the part of the hull under the new location of the engine?  How can you ascertain whether or not the hull in the area to which you move the engine will need any kind of reinforcement?

It is intended that the ladder and the engine box are a combined unit, saving some inches, and it might protrude a further 2" from the present ladder location but not all the way to the base. As a box the unit can hinge up from the countertop height on a gas strut. The intrusion likewise interferes with the galley so, fair point, but i think its ok.
Strength, again fair point. I think Id run the rails in the hull the mounts fit on further forward so that strength isnt lost aft, I guess I would have to add traverse sections within the mounts tabbed in. There may end up being more complete transverse bulkheads rather than less.

If you move the engine forward, will it be far enough for the gear box to block access to the stuffing box? It's already hard enough to get to the stuffing box as it is with the jack shaft in the way.  The angle of the jack shaft will be steeper, will that new angle be too much for the gear box and/or the v drive? I guess it depends on how far forward you plan to move the engine.


Now you've got me, access to the stuffing box is going to be very bad and I hadnt thought that through. I dont know what to do there. Could I fabricate a tool to fix this? not sure at all. The angle of the jack shaft shouldnt need to change, if you look at the drawing the line of the shaft is the same. If it isnt I wont do it, but it seems feasible not to change it provided the engine (which will move in operation) clears. To make this a profitable exercise the engine has to move somewhere between 12"-18", or again I wont do it.

Instead of moving the engine, consider rebuilding the cabinetry so that pieces are completely removable.  I am rebuilding that cabinet are so all the pieces are removable, from Quarter berth to the sink counter: completely open. When I replaced the fuel tank, I redesigned it to be shorter (fore and aft dimension). Now I can easily get to the raw water pump and alternator.  To maintain the 50 gallons, I widened the tank a bit.  As it is now, I can get to all parts of the engine from the companionway, except for the aft-facing plane of the engine. I have to descent into the port locker to mess with the raw water impeller and I have to descend into the stbd locker to inspect/change alternator belt.  Everything else, including the thermostat, I can reach from the companionway and almost all injectors have no obstruction above them.


Again fair point,Ive seen a few lift up cabinets that make access better, but its still pretty terrible. It just doesnt work out as well as most
I have to make a new fuel tank so this is a worthwhile idea as mine has been scrapped, ATM I have a 5 gall tank rigged in the lazerette and carry extra fuel in gerry cans. Ive been thinking of a composite board known as ThermoLite, if not its stainless. The twin 25 gal tanks if I dont do the engine

Another thing you can do is modify the forward end cockpit sole to increase the engine head room. That is what Maruska had when Dale bought it.

Interesting, Id never thought about that. A friend with a VanDeStadt cut out a removable panel for his engine access, but I dont like the structural compromise so this is better.

https://pearson365.com/forum/index.php?topic=156.0

Look carefully at the picture captioned, "Once the engine was in rough..."  you will see that the cockpit sole has been cut back to the cockpit drains.  I think the attached files are Dale's boat, showing the cockpit/engine area modification.

thankyou

If I think of any other potential problems, I'll let you know.

Much appreciated, greatly value the input.
Further South than South is
Hull #103

ZULU40

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Re: Please tell me Im Crazy
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2019, 06:14:31 AM »
Well I have to admit the stuffing box calamity has me a bit beat, in light of that moving the engine wont progress unless a suitable work around is devised.
A thread elsewhere makes me realise the importance of access, because if the thing lets go and you cant reach it, it would certainly cost the boat.
I thought about a handier smaller engine like a 33hp Kubota conversion, I even thought about using a saildrive for which the foot isnt a good fit to the Pearsons underwater profile,
so neither get past go. Pearson Pilothouse owners are definitely advantaged here !

At the same time the nav table has been better consolidated into the plan of the boat, when one looks at the revised plan it just makes sense.
Add to that the space behind the nav is probably the best place to store the weight of tools. I just wonder how many people who have the quarter berth opt to use it for storage.

Also the idea of raising the engine compartment roof is right under the step of the mizzen, that too becomes rather more work than the benefit brings.
While Im much happier with the plan, still the issue of engine access troubles me greatly and the source of enduring misery of the 365.

« Last Edit: July 15, 2019, 07:26:03 AM by ZULU40 »
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jpendoley

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Re: Please tell me Im Crazy
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2019, 09:41:06 AM »
Your not crazy about the shower. Mine was removed by a previous owner-we use the head and wipe down-takes a minute. All wood surfaces were coated with epoxy prior to varnish or laminated with formica. I have had all head cabinets apart and zero sign of moisture damage. Has been this way for many years. The positives are a much larger salon and less of an inclination on the admiral's part to take endless showers.
I understand folks like to use it as a wet locker-but then it has to be emptied for a shower. We use the locker opposite the head for foulies-ours is insulated with blown in foam and lined with drain holes in the floor of the locker-works great and we can take a shower anytime and we have a bigger salon. I do think your idea of extending the aft head bulkhead to the mast has merit though. You gain a little elbow room, but more importantly retain space for the drop down table in the salon.
I think moving the engine is just not worth all of the effort. The stuffing box is a pain, but not that bad. Remote oil filter and racor mounted on a removable panel under the sink works for me. Front of the engine work engenders some cursing, but I have seen much worse.

ZULU40

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Re: Please tell me Im Crazy
« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2019, 06:45:56 AM »
Oh excellent, thank you so much...

I can see the socket in the cabin roof for the stbd bulkhead, I sorta wondered how that might look
In the plan it looks like there would be a remnant of the shower some 6 to 8" deep suitable for a wet locker

I think the revised plan with the engine in situ and the cabinets a fair bit larger might keep me happier
a sh*tload less effort too
« Last Edit: August 08, 2019, 06:49:22 AM by ZULU40 »
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Jim S

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Re: Please tell me Im Crazy
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2019, 03:52:45 PM »
It is your boat so do what you want and live with it.  However, any permanent alterations will "bastardize" the layout and unless done to a very professional standard will look home made.  This affects the value of the boat when time to sell.  The changes may not be crazy to you but a potential new buyer may not agree.

Our philosophy has to keep Phantom to the same configuration that Shaw designed.  It obviously was attractive to a bunch of boaters.  There are some things that I might have wanted different, but I know that the designer knew more about boat design than I.

Jim S

ZULU40

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Re: Please tell me Im Crazy
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2019, 06:29:07 AM »
Sobering Jim
thank you
Further South than South is
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Jim S

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Re: Please tell me Im Crazy
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2019, 10:37:08 AM »
About the engine repositioning, you might want to consider a saildrive.  The weight distribution might still be an issue but you would eliminate the stuffing box and v-drive.  That was one of my possible replacement options, but I live in Texas and our boats are in the water year around for several years at a stretch.  Those in the northern areas where the boat is hauled out yearly would have the opportunity to deal with the maintenance issues peculiar to them.

A good saildrive installation might not be a resale issue. 

Jim S

ZULU40

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Re: Please tell me Im Crazy
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2019, 06:05:01 PM »
thanks Jim
I read this a few days ago and didnt know how to respond
I dont have much experience with sail drives and originally thought the base wasnt a good fit
Im keeping it in mind
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Jim S

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Re: Please tell me Im Crazy
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2019, 09:01:56 PM »
I do not know whether it would be a good replacement engine for our 365s.  It was recommended to me by a respected boat mechanic when the need came up. 

It was the electrolysis, corrosion and unusual maintenance that made me shy away from it.  I knew engines, transmissions, v-drives, packing glands, shafts and struts and I did not know sail drives  Our marina can have stray electrical currents and I just did not know enough to trust and I did not have the money to replace it if it failed early.

I did not research them further, but I see that many are in use today.  Maybe they are better now.
Jim S