Oil change nightmare

[POG]

All right - so, we all love our boats.  I certainly do, but not blindly - and with some qualifications.

On all boats there are compromises.  On the P 365 and her cutter sisters engine accessibility was sacrificed for a great cockpit, galley and interior in general.  There is even a shower with plenty of water (instead of storage) for the ladies for those weekend or week long outings along the Eastern seaboard.  It must have made the boat very easy to sell at the boat shows.  Its appeals are directed very much at the real decision makers in any functioning family.

It drives me nuts that I cannot get to the engine in any reasonable way for service or checks.  I suppose the majority of the early buyers would have left that problem to their yard.  Yesterday I nearly completed my second oil change on POG.  I started by running the engine warm at about 2 pm and had not finished the job when I had to leave at 5:30 to get home in time to cook dinner for my wife (she the boss).

Why was the Westerbeke not fitted with a banjo nut and an oil change tube at the bottom plug in the oil pan?  This would have made sucking out the oil infinitely easier and faster than crawling under the galley sink and trying to get the oil out from the dip stick tube with a minimum caliber insertion.  

I think I pumped for more than one hour to get just about 4 quarts out.  I have several contraptions on board to get the oil out including a vacuum pump container.  The only one that will do the job, though, is a small hand pump that develops enough suction to get the old oil out, teaspoon by painful teaspoon.  I believe I have seen somewhere that the W 40 takes 5 1/2 quarts of oil.  It is physically impossible to get all of that out as the engine tilts and the dip stick is at the high end of the oil pan, which means that you always are leaving 20-25% of the old oil unchanged. Crazy or what?

When and if I decide to get the engine out of the boat I will install a banjo nut and tube at the  bottom oil plug for easy and quick changes that will drain all the old oil.  It is impossible to get to the area to do it with the engine in place.

At this stage in life I should know what I am doing, but if someone has a better way to deal with the current situation using the dip stick tube - please, let me know.

Carl

[SailingSeaDragon]

Carl

Check out www.sailingseadragon.com - then Projects - Winterizing.
On this page is a summary of what works best for me.  Note our boat is a Cutter so it
does not have the support for mizen. However the pump is great makes
removing the oil easy.

Garner

[POG]

Garner,
Thank you for helping out. I tried your link but something is amiss with the winterizing project on your site.  I get just past the bleeding of the "red beast" and then it doesn't continue any further and ask me if I want to return to "Projects".

By the way the pictures and information on your Seadragon site are amazing and a real asset to every owner of these boats.  I think it might be worthwhile to make more of this treasure throve on the club forum so people don't miss out.  Something like the Maruska restoration corner.

Carl

[SailingSeaDragon]

Carl,

I just checked the website.... Well, at some point I over wrote the page with an earlier "work-in-progress". My backups are at the office. I will try to find the correct page or reconstruct it this week... However, until then I have attached the an image of the oil extractor I settled on after trying several including the Jabsco unit that attaches to a drill.



The Moeller is now sold exclusively under the West Marine name and a little over priced - but worth the $$$$. You insert the tube sealed at the top of the dipstick tube, draw a vacuum in the extractor, and walk away. I takes about 15 minutes to extract a little over 4 qrts from the engine (the filter hold about a 1/2 qrt). The key is that when inserting the line into the dip stick is to make sure that you have a tight seal around the dipstick tube and the extractor tube.



In the picture above just below the electrical connector you will see a rubber "collar" that serves as the seal the dipstick tube during oil removal. The unit comes with several size extraction tubes and seals. You will need to find the one that fits the best.

I think others have used this unit and have had good results.

I hope this helps.

Garner

[POG]

Thank you very much for your effort Garner!

I have a contraption like the Moeller which came with the boat but it is missing parts on the connection side which I have improvised with bits from the plumbing departments of hardware stores.  Even so its weak vacuum is like the feeble love bite of a 100 year old.  It does not arouse any measurable quantities of oil.  I am leaving it at home when I cast off.

I am a bit surprised that the Moeller works without inserting anything into the dip stick tube.  Surely that tube does not extend nearly to the bottom of the oil pan?  Seems like magic to me and contrary to the laws of physics.

I am tempted to invest in one of these pumps, but the size of it is a deterrent as part of the permanent equipment on a traveling cruising boat.

I am sure you agree with me that Pearson should have installed a banjo nut and pump-out tube at the oil pan plug before the engine went into the boat.  Then again, it is not the kind of thing that sells new boats at the shows.  Talking about oil changes then is the last thing on the agenda of the eager boat sales people.

Many thanks,

Carl

[Robot]

Hi Carl.
For my first oil change I purchased a hand pump and inserted the small diameter tube into the dipstick tube, then pumped away. Nothing happened. I then tried using a larger diameter hose which fit right over the dipstick tube and brought the pump out of the engine compartment, and tried again. This time I was able to extract about 4 liters with no problem. It looks to me like the dipstick tube extents all the way to the bottom of the pan. There was likely still oil in the pan because, as you said, the angle of the installation makes it impossible to get it all, but I was happy.

Pete
Sirius III
Hull #338

[POG]

Hey Pete,

That is interesting information.  I will try it next time.  It still stinks that you can't get rid of about 20% of the old oil. 

Thanks,

Carl

[RayNWanda]

We have a 3 1/2 gal. Jabsco 12V unit that works pretty well. It came from West Marine, Model # 6915094

I bought it in desperation. We were trying to get our first 365 ready to leave Houston, and we had a vee drive with water in it. It had entered when the bilge water had gotten almost up to the cabin sole. I was trying to flush the vee drive and all I had was a little hand pump that was on the boat. It leaked at every concievable place, and I still had an engine oil change to do. Plus, after 4 or so flushes, the vee drive still had water in it. We went to West Marine and that is what we came back with. It did solve the problem. I have used it on my truck and the lawn mower too. Seems to be a good unit. I see that it has some bad reviews. There are 2 things to be aware of, pull out the vent plug when you use it, and make sure the suction hose is fully inserted. Either will slow it way down. 

[slokat]

You guys are making feel bad that the previous owner of Wind Tamer installed an oil drain pump...
If you ever pull the engine, it's worth switching the drain plug & installing the tubing, pump can be added later.

[slokat]

I'm usually cursing the previous owner while upside down or imitating a pretzel & trying to fix a bad repair... this item makes up for some of that.

[Randy]

Once I remove the entire panel between the engine and storage area under the sink, I have pretty good access to the engine. I can even see the main engine drain plug. Pretty sure i could get a wrench on it. I wonder if I would be able to install some sort of a fitting for a drain or pump? 

[POG]

Slokat,

A picture of your oil drain pump would be great, you lucky devil...

Carl

[Henri Hali]

Hi guys:

I just replaced my original motor mounts, and by dumb luck found I could remove the section under the sink very easily. That would have made my original effort to install a permanent oil pump out system a lot easier. What I did then was:
1. remove the transmission
2. loosen the motor mount screws
3. raise the engine with a bottle jack
4. curse, curse some more, but finally get the oil plug out and replaced with a elbow fitting with a flare end attached to the drain    hose.
The rest of the install was quite easy. It was all worth it!!!!!
Had I known about the woodwork I would not have needed to remove the transmission. The drain plug is right there in plain sight. I suspect its easier to get a wrench around a nut you can see as opposed to feeling your way while in a position nature never intended for humans.

Before I replaced the mounts, I cut my fuel tank into three pieces to get it thru the port locker. I decided to have a local shop make two replacement tanks. They are being fabricated as I write. If you are interested in that project I'll put that in under another topic.

Whatever it takes it was worth the effort!!!!!!!!!!!

Henri 

[Randy]

Henri,

I discovered how easy it is to remove that panel purely by chance. It sure makes changing the engine mounted fuel filter a much easier process.

So my question is, how do you "drain" the oil? Are you running a hose from the oil sump to a container in the bilge? , or pumping it out?

Cheers

[Henri Hali]

Randy:
I used a Qwik-Drain Oil Removal System kit model 112. It consists of a 12volt pump with hoses and fittings.
I pretty sure they are no longer in business. But, the info I have from the box is:

Distributor Imtra Marine Products New Bedford Mass. 508-995-7000
Manufacturer Quad Mfg Inc Coeur d'Alene ID 208-765-6416

Your other option might be to attach the installed hose to a manual pump. There are a bunch of them available.

good luck.