Westerbeke W 40 engine and Paragon gear box

[POG]

Hi everybody,

It seems that the kind guidance of concerned members of our club has finally enabled me to post a few questions on the mechanical forum.

I am the owner, since March 2010, of POG - P365 ketch #118.  Barring any further revelations of major problems - and there have been a few on the way - the boat will depart San Francisco for the Marquesas and on to New Zealand in early April.

At this moment I am working on the engine - cleaning out the fuel tank, improving filter system, replacing the last half of the fuel line with rubber hose and barb connections etc.  The engine has less than 1000 hours on it verified by logs and hour counter.

My first question is this:  Is my W 40 engine basically a Perkins 4-107 or is it a 4-108?  Does it matter which?  

From papers found on the boat (a Pearson winterizing tick-off sheet) I can tell that my hull #118 was finished at the factory in the fall of 1976.  It was delivered to its first owner in Los Angeles in the spring of 1977.

Question number 2:  My Paragon 1:1 gearbox shifts into forward with a clear and distinct engagement.  That is not the case with reverse.  It works but there is no "notch" telling you that you have shifted.  This is disconcerting because you have a feeling that you have to keep pressure on the gear shift lever at the pedestal to keep the engine in reverse.

I did take the gear cable fork off the lever at the gearbox and tried shifting by moving it directly by hand.  It works fine in forward but in reverse it will turn the prop but the lever does not "notch in" even if you exert considerable force.

I have a hard time thinking that this is normal Paragon performance.  How concerned should I be?

Carl

 

[graemek]

Hi
  The only big change that i know of between the 107 and the 108 are the liners,107 are wet liners and the 108 is dry liners,there should be a number stamped on the block just in front of the inj pump,The gear shift is right, there is a detent in forward gear but not in revers just keep pressure on the gear shifter in reverse,the revers is a friction band around the out side of the drum,hope this helps ,ocean pilgrim

[Henri Hali]

Carl:
Just to add to the response from graemek the 40 is the perkins 107. If you need parts check with a Perkins supplier first. Replacement parts are as much as 100% less than from westerbeke.

Henri

[Bay Sailor]

My recent experience: For years the previous owner of my boat was certain that this engine was a 4-107 but that it could be fitted with 4-108 parts. That certainty went away in a hurry when my mechanic (after screwing up royally) took down the serial number on the engine and checked it against the manufacturing records. Turns out my engine is a 4-108, and true or not, the mechanic says it is a 50hp engine. How's that for annoying revelations?

Mark

[POG]

Thanks Gaemek and Henri,

That is a relief to know that nothing is wrong with my gear box.  I will check the engine ID number at the injector pump.  Wish I had a well trained dwarf available for any tak in the engine non-room.  And Mark - I don't see any way that your 4-108 would have 50 HP. I would be a bit suspicious of your mechanic.  Got to run...

Carl

[S/V Deo Volente]

My pilothouse version is equipped with a Westerbeke W50 4-108 which is rated at 45 hp at 3200 rpm. By calling it a "50" it gives the impression that it's 50hp. I think it will put out 50 hp at 4000 rpm but they don't run them that fast. I have been told it is based on a Leyland block.

[POG]

I apologize for my spelling mistakes this morning.  In a hurry.

This is what I have found out about my W 40 engine:

While picking up a few (stage 2/on the engine) fuel filters from the Oakland Perkins outfit _ British Marine - I had a conversation with the owner about the Westerbeke/Perkins relationship.  According to Clive(?), Cliff (?), Clyde (?) Perkins quit making the 4-107 in 1974.

Consequently it would be remarkiable if any P365 were equipped with an engine that was already outdated in 1976 when the first P365 was born - though one never knows.

I have yet to stick my head down by the injection pump to check the id number that is supposedly there.  I actually have a Westerbeke serial number plate attached to my manifold cooling mantel just by the pressure cap.  The number starts with 108 which gives me reason to think that this is a 4-108 engine.

Clive further informed me that the Perkins 4-107s/4-108s are rated at higher engine revs (4000) and hp than the Westerbeke engines.  According to him Westerbeke purchased and marinized an industrial version of the Perkins which was limited to 3,000 rpm and consequently less hp.

Another difference is Westerbeke's (to me mindless) shrinking of the raw water cooling plumbing from the pump's 3/4" to pass through the oil cooler's and heat exchanger's smaller 1/2" plumbing.  I am sure that this was the cause of the ruptured seal in my raw water pump at the time of purchase.  Neither the seal nor the impeller can benefit from having to fight the pressure from the narrow hoses.   
   

[wedelstein]

If you are having trouble between the two The easy way toe tell the 4-107 from the 4-108 is the head bolts. The 4-108 has 7/16" the 4-107 has 3/8". The 1-107 has wet sleeves vs the 4-108 has dry sleeves and other differences but they are internal. All of the accesories are interchangable.

[Sta-Sea-Dawn]

Hey everyone....a little off topic but still tanny related sorta.....
I do not have the Edson pedestal steering station.  I have to move my Engine control (shifter and throttle) to a single lever side mount controller on lazzerate side wall.  I bought the Vetus side mount.  Now, I hooked up the throttle cable with out a problem....but I still have a huge Edson transmission cable (A728 red) that will not hook to the shifter.  The instructions with the Vetus shifter mentions C-33 cable.  I can only find a teleflex 33C Red Jaket.  Does anyone know if this is heavy enough...or what cables does anyone have that is not Edson....confused?....Billy

[Sta-Sea-Dawn]

Me again......is the paragon V drive transmission, hydraulic.  There is some hydraulic hosed hooked to a phram filter.
The tranny is hard to move, if at all when the motor is not running.  I fit is hydraulic and I crank the engine it just might move easily.  I have not tried it with the motor running, yet.  My old edson pedestal with the shifter and throttle on the pedestal is gone.  The last owner bought one with out the capability of the shifter and throttle being on it.  I have mounted a single lever side mount controller.  My throttle cable hooked up just fine, but the edson A-728 will not.  It is just to big in diameter.    What cable do ya'll have or what can I replace the edson A723 with....type 33C series is what my Vetus controller calls for but is it big enough.  I have yet to go and see one in person.....Billy

[Dale Tanski]

Billy,
Hum... two separate questions here.  The V-drive is made by Walter.  It does have a hose in and out.  The top cover of the V-drive has a tube running just underneath it that the lube oil splashes against and cools the lube oil down when the V-drive is turning.  This cooler is in line from your raw water intake on its way to the engine.
The Paragon transmission does not have a hose connection for cooling, or at least mine does not.  I believe that the Hirth may but that is a question for someone else. 
As for a Fram filter in a hose to either, I can't imagine what is up with that. It could be a remote oil filter for your engine.  Follow the hoses carefully just to be sure.
If the transmission is in gear it will be impossible to turn the drive shaft, or even if partially in gear it will be very difficult to turn. 
As for your shifter cable question.  Can you shoot us a picture of what you have? 
Dale

[SailingSeaDragon]

Billy,

Below is a link to a the Paragon Series E transmission which is a hydraulic transmission. Page 3 provides information on how to identify your transmission.

http://www.sailingseadragon.com/Manuals/ParagonPSeriesE.pdf

The Borg Warner Velvet Drive is another hydraulic transmission found in P365.
http://www.sailingseadragon.com/Manuals/VelvetDrive.pdf

All of the P365 had Walter RV-10 V-drives custom built for them.
http://www.sailingseadragon.com/Manuals/Walter_V%20_Drive.pdf

I hope this helps.
Garner

[Sta-Sea-Dawn]

Thanks everyone...geez this is a great site for 365er's.
Looking again, I believe the hoses and filter I am seeing is the remote oil filter.  The paragon does not have any hoses running from it.  I am installing the 33c red Jaket (Page 639 ...160384 in catalog online from west marine)..it is a teleflex cable.  Is it strong enough for the tranny?  It is nowhere as stout as the Edson cable ...that I found on the boat....
The transmission will not move through the gear range (partially).  I do have not tried it with the motor running.

[barrylab]

There is only one detent in the Paragon Transmission. Forward locks in with a detent, you push down hard on the handle for reverse, there is no detent. It makes finding neutral a little 'iffy sometimes. I thought my transmission was either broken or badly adjusted when I first got the boat, but after opening the transmission and studying it I realized it's meant to work this way.