Pearson 365 and 367

Pearson 365 and 367 => Pearson 365/367 Mechanic Shop => Topic started by: jpendoley on December 31, 2019, 07:03:53 PM

Title: Westerbeke 40 Rebuild?
Post by: jpendoley on December 31, 2019, 07:03:53 PM
I have a project ahead of me. Removed the old Perkins and have it home in the shop. I can turn a wrench-but definitely an amateur. Rebuilt an Atomic four and it runs like a watch.  I also have the complete shop manual. The impetus to remove the diesel was copious oil leaks-beyond normal even for a perkins. Recall, I replaced the rear seal in place last year. Once home, I could see the rear seal is not leaking anymore, but it seems the leak is coming from the oil pan flange and perhaps from around the front seal.  This engine really runs well in all respects-its just the oil leaks that got me to pull it.

Current plan is do perform a leak down test (need to buy the gauges) and evaluate overall condidtion. The engine has 4000+ hours on it (meter stopped working), but starts easily, runs cool, plenty of power and no smoke.  If the leakdown test results are within spec, I will replace the gaskets top and bottom-if the results indicate rings or cylinder wear I'll consideer tearing it down and rebuilding from scratch..,
No matter what, it must be due for a valve adjustment or perhaps reseating.
Any cautionary words before I wade in too deep?
Jim
Title: Re: Westerbeke 40 Rebuild?
Post by: S/V AMITY on December 31, 2019, 08:44:14 PM
Nope...sounds like you have things well in hand.  Keep the progress posts coming.  Likely some of the rest of us with Westerbekes will be facing the same issues down the line.  Best for 2020!
Title: Re: Westerbeke 40 Rebuild?
Post by: Dale Tanski on January 02, 2020, 07:34:42 AM
Like any major project... just break it down into littler bits and it all doesn't look so overwhelming.  Working on a diesel is actually simpler as there is no ignition system to address.  You are down to the basic basics, air and fuel. 
The only items that you may look for some help on if you go the full monte would be the injectors and injector pump.  These two items need special tools and knowledge above most well versed mechanics.  The rest of it if you have done any engine work at all is sort of the same old thing. 
You can do it!
Dale
Maruska
365 Ketch
Title: Re: Westerbeke 40 Rebuild?
Post by: jpendoley on January 02, 2020, 08:40:47 AM
Thanks Dale.  I did rebuild an Atomic 4 a few years ago and that went well.  Diesels do seem easier without the ignition circuit.  The boat came with a set of four new injectors all sealed up in plastic.  The injection pump will be sent off if the head and cylinders turn out to be far out of spec.  Hoping just to reseal everything, but definitely going to mic everything before slap on new gaskets.
Title: Re: Westerbeke 40 Rebuild?
Post by: S/V AMITY on January 02, 2020, 09:15:34 AM
Will you be getting into the transmission?  Might be a good to change the seals while its out even if they aren't leaking... yet.
Title: Re: Westerbeke 40 Rebuild?
Post by: jpendoley on January 02, 2020, 09:53:15 AM
Will see how much work the diesel needs. Reality is the velvet drive is very easy to get at, so if I run out of time (65 days till spring!) can always do that in situ. Have never worked on a transmission so not eager to take on another project-runs very smooth now. Hoping the leak down test indicates good rings and valves and I only need to regasket and tighten things up and throw it back in.  It was the oil leak I am anxious to address-if there is significant source of blow by I will address incrementally. The motor was running fine-no smoke, lots of power-just a God awful amount of leaking oil....the good news is the rear seal I replaced last summer seems to be doing its job-no sign of a leak there. Lots of leaks indicated around the timing cover and the pan and the valve cover and a cheesy plastic cap over the mechanical tack port-essentially leaking from anyplace it can. I don't know if it has ever been regasketed, but am betting that will cut the consumption in half....
Title: Re: Westerbeke 40 Rebuild?
Post by: S/V AMITY on January 02, 2020, 10:17:46 AM
I wonder if the gasket material Westerbeke/Perkins used was spec'd. correctly to begin with.  Seems oil leaks are a constant with these engines. 
Title: Re: Westerbeke 40 Rebuild?
Post by: jpendoley on January 05, 2020, 05:54:14 PM
Next noob question: I bought a motor stand so I can elevate a spin the engine while working on it.  I bought one rated for 1000 pounds (cheap-$60).
My question is, where to mount the securing bolts? My thinking is the bell housing is too thin and it might crack if I attach the stand there.  My thought is to remove the bell housing and flywheel and try to find mounting holes in the engine block....am I on the right track? I've never had a stand and I worry about all that weight on the mounting bolts might crack the block if I use the wrong bolt holes. silly probably, but I'm cautious in my old age...
Title: Re: Westerbeke 40 Rebuild?
Post by: P69 on January 06, 2020, 09:41:51 PM
I removed the bell housing (bell housing cover?) From my Universal 5444 and bolted the engine to the stand. 

It was kinda weird seeing 500 lbs hanging from one end, but it stayed put for several months while I rebuilt it.

http://bodylens.com/Gallery/displayimage.php?album=8&pid=112#top_display_media

I bought a 1000 lb capacity stand similar to this harbor freight one.

https://www.harborfreight.com/1000-lb-capacity-engine-stand-69886.html?cid=paid_google|*PLA+-+Top+SKUs+-+All+%28Branded%29||69886&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&mkwid=s|pcrid|405242651993|pkw||pmt||pdv|m|slid||product|69886|&pgrid=87378099278&ptaid=pla-295478218950&pcid=1426698639&intent=&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIm53Jg7vw5gIVAdbACh1U1QAzEAQYASABEgLZffD_BwE

Title: Re: Westerbeke 40 Rebuild?
Post by: jpendoley on January 08, 2020, 10:16:58 AM
Thanks for that reassurance Pete. That Harbor Frieght unit is the one I have.  Removed four of the five flywheel bolts with an impact driver, but the last one knurled over. Who woulda thought impact wrenches need impact sockets NOT normal chromed sockets...sign?  I'm not a mechanic by trade, just a sales executive mechanic wannabe. Live and learn. soaking that bolt with kroil penetrant, hopefully it will yield tonight.
Title: Re: Westerbeke 40 Rebuild?
Post by: S/V Deo Volente on January 09, 2020, 08:48:50 AM
There are specialty sockets to use on rounded bolts also. They have saved me a few times. Impact sockets are not only harder but all are 6 points which are less likely to round the bolt, but I bet you know that now.
Title: Re: Westerbeke 40 Rebuild?
Post by: jpendoley on January 09, 2020, 10:41:31 AM
I know that now:)
IRWIN HANSON BOLT-GRIP Bolt Extractor Base Set, 5 Piece, -new tool on the way. This is one expensive bolt...if extraction doohickey does't work I get to buy a welder to put a new head on the knurled head. Could be fun
Title: Re: Westerbeke 40 Rebuild?
Post by: S/V Deo Volente on January 09, 2020, 10:49:35 AM
I know that now:)
IRWIN HANSON BOLT-GRIP Bolt Extractor Base Set, 5 Piece, -new tool on the way. This is one expensive bolt...if extraction doohickey does't work I get to buy a welder to put a new head on the knurled head. Could be fun
Well it's nice you can weld it, but if that breaks it off they make left handed drill bits that can aid in extraction. I hope it doesn't come to that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYvaPbX1sT4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYvaPbX1sT4)
Title: Re: Westerbeke 40 Rebuild?
Post by: S/V AMITY on January 09, 2020, 11:54:30 AM
... or center drill it and use an easy-out.
Title: Re: Westerbeke 40 Rebuild?
Post by: S/V Deo Volente on January 09, 2020, 02:06:15 PM
... or center drill it and use an easy-out.
If it works for you great, I haven't had much luck with easy-outs especially on rusted bolts. Drilling down the center is important though in case you end up drilling and tapping.
Title: Re: Westerbeke 40 Rebuild?
Post by: Dale Tanski on January 09, 2020, 02:24:52 PM
Lots of times once the head is gone, all of the tensile loading is off of the bolt and you might just easily wind it out.  Sometimes a left handed drill will work as while the drill is drilling it unwinds what is left of the fastener.  Often times you can just take a center punch and spin the bolt by tapping on an angle with a hammer.  Rule of thumb... the harder the bolt the easier it comes out.  This is because it doesn't stretch and deform as it breaks.  If you have a welder you can weld a nut on to what's left of the bolt and the heat will help when you wind it out with the new head.

Dale
Obersheimers
Maruska
Title: Re: Westerbeke 40 Rebuild?
Post by: jpendoley on January 10, 2020, 09:37:24 AM
Dale,
Agree with all of the above-though I do hate easy outs-if they snap you have a bigger problem. Almost hope my bolt extractor kit that I ordered does not work so I can order a MIG welder. They can be had for $160 and have always wanted one:) Worlds most expensive bolt extraction continues...
Hoping this is just a gasket replacement and general tightening up project with a valve adjustment for good measure, but willing to go for a complete rebuild if necessary.  Thinking I can post my progress for everyones amusement and get he help of wiser heads when things like this come up. Many of us have the Westerbeast-which is a great power plant if you can control the leaks.
Jim
Title: Re: Westerbeke 40 Rebuild?
Post by: Dale Tanski on January 10, 2020, 09:56:25 AM
I neglected to mention that sometimes when I can't get my hands on an EZ-out (I don't own many and also not a fan) I will often take a worn out tap and grind it to a triangle shape and use that as a bolt extractor.  I tap it into the hole that I drilled into the bolt and use that as a tool to move the bolt back and forth.

Good luck...

Dale
Title: Re: Westerbeke 40 Rebuild?
Post by: SVJourney on January 10, 2020, 08:59:52 PM
I wouldn't use easy outs on hardened bolts that are probably torqued to 60 ft lbs and left to sit for 40 years.  You are not likely to get the splines to bite anyways.  And if you break it off?........
I would weld a bolt head if I had a welder.  Otherwise just grind the head off.
Be aware that those are probably grade 6 bolts and should be matched when you replace it.
Totally arm-chair quarterbacking here in Portland in winter. :-\
Title: Re: Westerbeke 40 Rebuild?
Post by: jpendoley on January 12, 2020, 07:53:32 PM
Arm chair quaterbacking is the point! I need all the advice I can get. Happy to report the recalcitrant bolt yielded to my newest addition to the tool box-Irwin Extractors.  I put the 9/16 extractor on and put some leverage on and it bit hard-no slippage, but still didn't budge. I then put a long pipe on the socket handle, like four feet long-and it came out easy as pie!  This is going in the kit as amust have for knurled bolts.  Engine is on the stand-the rear seal is off (remember I replaced it last year) and all eveidence is the rear seal was not the source of the leakage. That seal will be replaced again, of course, but the forward seal area seems like it was leaking in volume. More to follow.
Jim
Title: Re: Westerbeke 40 Rebuild?
Post by: jpendoley on January 13, 2020, 10:10:40 AM
Next Question: Removing the injection pump.  the block needs cleaning and painting and the pump is in the way. Is it rocket science to remove the pump? I have the manual, but thought I'd ask before I study up. Also, should I send it out for servicing?
Title: Re: Westerbeke 40 Rebuild?
Post by: jpendoley on January 13, 2020, 05:33:07 PM
Another dumb question. Let's say the leakdown test shows good compression and everything is within spec (after all, it was running fine-just leaking oil); the block is rusty in lots of places and paint is peeling. If I don't need to send the block out for machining-could I buttun up ALL openings, intake and exhaust, weep holes on pumps and soda blast the beast?  It would be nice to not scrape and wire brush as that seems to miss alot and take forever.  Somehow, it seems like a dumb idea, but thought I would ask...
Title: Re: Westerbeke 40 Rebuild?
Post by: SVJourney on January 13, 2020, 05:40:50 PM
"Another dumb question. Let's say the leakdown test shows good compression and everything is within spec (after all, it was running fine-just leaking oil); the block is rusty in lots of places and paint is peeling. If I don't need to send the block out for machining-could I buttun up ALL openings, intake and exhaust, weep holes on pumps and soda blast the beast?  It would be nice to not scrape and wire brush as that seems to miss alot and take forever.  Somehow, it seems like a dumb idea, but thought I would ask..."

I did it with industrial degreaser and a metal scrub brush followed by ether just before spraying.  Worked well and only cost me a few hours/bucks.
Title: Re: Westerbeke 40 Rebuild?
Post by: SVJourney on January 13, 2020, 05:51:47 PM
"Next Question: Removing the injection pump.  the block needs cleaning and painting and the pump is in the way. Is it rocket science to remove the pump? I have the manual, but thought I'd ask before I study up. Also, should I send it out for servicing?"

The biggest issue when removing the motor is job creep.  I removed mine to replace the fuel tank and ended up overhauling most of the things that are bolted to it.  AND rewiring the engine harness.  AND replacing mounts.  AND a new damper plate.  AND a starter overhaul.  AND....
I thought it was worth it.  But I was cruising very remote parts of the South Pacific after the overhaul so wanted it to be as new as possible.  Are your going to overhaul injectors?  Cheap to get overhauled injectors online.  Entirely your call.

Removing the pump is rather simple when the engine is out.  Make sure you mark the case before removing the pump to maintain the pump timing as the retiming procedure is not fun to say the least. 
The biggest gotcha after that is contamination in the lines.  If you are going to pull the pump, send the lines in with it to have them blasted and painted.  Be clean and careful during reassembly.
There are other threads on the forum that give a step by step for pump replacement.  Good reads and you can learn from other people's (mine!) fails to save yourself bucks and heartache. 
Title: Re: Westerbeke 40 Rebuild?
Post by: SVJourney on January 13, 2020, 05:56:13 PM
Pump replacement: 
https://pearson365.com/forum/index.php?topic=1645.msg9038#msg9038
Title: Re: Westerbeke 40 Rebuild?
Post by: jpendoley on January 13, 2020, 06:24:20 PM
Wayne, thanks for the link. I did hear about the timing mark or absence there of.  Since I have to take the front end apart as that seal is leaking together with the timing cover, I thought the pump might as well come off and go out for a check. The boat came with four shrink wrapped brand new injectors-but how would I know if the old installed ones are bad?. And I hear you on project creep, but the starter is easy-I'm doing the serpentine upgrade while I am at it and I might even do the walker air sep. If the leak down test is good, those costs would be minor in comparison to a full rebuild.
Love your site by the way-very inspiriing.
Title: Re: Westerbeke 40 Rebuild?
Post by: SVJourney on January 13, 2020, 07:00:54 PM
"The boat came with four shrink wrapped brand new injectors-but how would I know if the old installed ones are bad?."

The way to tell is to send the old ones in to be "pop tested".  They will also do a visual inspection for erosion to the tips. 
Injectors are not that expensive. I bought them here and had a good experience: https://www.adiesel.com/departments/view/18546   
Some people say to always install new spare boat parts and pickle the old ones as your spares, cause you know they work. For instance, my boat came with a brand new heat exchanger that didn't fit and I didn't find that out till Tonga.  Bad.  In your situation, I would install the new ones and have the old ones pop tested, pickled and packaged.

Some more on job creep.  I think the worst thing is rebuilding everything then not finding out that there is a maintenance caused problem till the engine is mounted.  For instance, I pulled the pump, it tested fine, then after reinstall it leaked from a banjo fitting.  Just a piece of dirt or something. Not a big deal right?  But the banjo fitting was under the pump and so inaccessible that I had to remove the pump again to change a ten cent copper O-ring again.  Just something to keep in mind.  The age old adage that if it aint broke, don't fix it.  Something I disregard with great regularity, sometimes getting myself bit in the ass.
Title: Re: Westerbeke 40 Rebuild?
Post by: jpendoley on January 13, 2020, 07:22:43 PM
I think we have similar tendencies, as in "while I'm at it I might as well" when the smartest thing to do is leave well enough alone. But I can't do that, I have to understand how things work and how they go together. Sometimes it does cause grief, but over all it gives a sense of security and self reliance.
Title: Re: Westerbeke 40 Rebuild?
Post by: S/V AMITY on January 13, 2020, 08:42:40 PM
   I'm with jpendoley.  With the engine out it'll never be easier to replace every seal you can (leaking or not).  The rust on the engine says there was a raw water leak coming from somewhere. Hoses, heat exchanger end cover caps, raw water pump...anywhere water was moving. 

  Something that strikes me is how many complaints there are of marine engines leaking oil.  No modern production engine was designed to leak oil.  My guess is that either the gasket materials used were spec'd. incorrectly or the mating parts were not torqued properly together or at some point someone decide to re-use the old gaskets. For my re-assembly projects where the component doesn't require occasional disassembly for routine maintenance such as the valve cover, I Permatex all gaskets.  Even with the valve cover gasket, I never re-use the old one.  Once a gasket is seated and heated to engine operating temp., it compresses.  Re-using it will run a high risk of leakage.  That's why most rebuild kits include fresh gaskets.
Title: Re: Westerbeke 40 Rebuild?
Post by: jpendoley on January 15, 2020, 09:18:53 AM
I'm a noobie and knowingly open myself to humor in exchange to serious advice from all of you who have done this before.  For example: I dropped a 9/16 bolt into an exhaust port as I removed the manifold. That stopped all work while I went out to buy a telescoping magnet stick.  A real mechanic would have covered all openings with duct tape BEFORE something bad happened. I got lucky, the bolt is easily reachable, but lesson learned.

I'm surprised nobody has warned me away from blasting the block with soda or glass beads.  I have this fantasy of an engine painted snow white where all leaks are easily noticed before they become a serious problem.  Its currently a rusty, oily, paint flaking mess. Of course this would require sealing off the various exposed openings (see mistake above)-is there something really dumb about this idea :-\?
Title: Re: Westerbeke 40 Rebuild?
Post by: S/V AMITY on January 15, 2020, 10:08:02 AM
  Your engine looks good compared to some.  OK, I'll say it: stay away from blasting.

  This engine was out & worked on previously.  Paint colour mis-match between the block & pan tells that story.  From what your picture shows I'd replace ALL accessible gaskets, replace all flex hoses & wiring.  Run the engine in the shop for a couple of hours to confirm all's well.  From there de-grease & get as much of the loose paint off as you can.  If you really want to get ALL the old paint off, spray unscented Easy-Off oven cleaner on the offending areas. It works like a charm.  Degrease engine again (brake cleaner works well), then prime & repaint.  Keep the engine beautiful by watching for any water/fuel leaks and addressing them promptly. 

  While the engine is out, now would be a good time to check for any leaks around the steering pedestal mounting points.  If they leaking, all your efforts on the engine will be wasted.
Title: Re: Westerbeke 40 Rebuild?
Post by: Dale Tanski on January 15, 2020, 10:24:05 AM
If it were me, unless you are planning on a complete tear down, all off, everything apart, prepping the externals for paint using something like soda blast or glass beads will be tough to do.  It will be all but impossible to keep contaminants form entering the internals using an accelerated airborne abrasive.  Once inside who knows what will happen.  If its all apart, let-er rip and clean after the fact. I would even prepaint sub assemblies if you go this way.

Even if you are planning on a complete tear down or a wash and paint, degreasing should be the first order of business.  I would use some sort of solvent and then perhaps a trip to the quarter car wash or a steam cleaner.  If the original paint has questionable adhesion characteristics it should/will fail during any of the above procedures.  If a solvent or pressure wash wont take it off it should be good to go. 

I solvent cleaned my 4-107 and sprayed it with a two part urethane in 2005.  I stuck with the Westerbeke orange/red color and to this day it looks like new.  That includes 8 straight full days running the Erie Canal.  If you get it all done and 4 years from now you see a line of weeping oil down that snow white paint job are you going to tear it apart again? Probably not but it would look sweet. One thing is for sure... sooner or latter it will leak some how some where. 

Before you stick it all back together I would recommend installing a oil drain hose from the drain fitting on the bottom of the oil pan down into the bilge with a cap on the end.  When it comes time for an oil change take the cap off and drop the hose into a empty gallon container and let it drain. This is something I forgot to do on mine.  Also, I installed a remote oil filter that mounts on the bulkhead.  That little option makes for a much better experience while changing the filter, nothing drooling down the motor.

Dale
Title: Re: Westerbeke 40 Rebuild?
Post by: jpendoley on January 15, 2020, 01:26:49 PM
Good point on the pedestal bolts. Dale is right about the oil drain hose-I installed one and no longer dread an oil change-great upgrade. I did that when I replaced the rear seal in place last year.. Ditto for the remotely mounted oil filter-though the cap that covers the original oil filter mounting point does not seal perfectly-maybe it just needs to be spun on tighter.

The paint stripping question will be resolved by the leakdown test. Good numbers mean this is just a gasketing job-engine has 4000+ hours on it, but was well maintaained. If a rebuild is warranted, then I can have a creamy white engine...

Interestingly, the oil pan is a huge source of seepage. When I looked at the pan (still attached) you could see where the pan flange had been distorted by the bolts being tightened down.It was leaking in a couple of places. Given the level of distortion to the pan flange, I don't see how it COULD NOT leak!
Starting at the blue line in the picture you can follow the wavy outline of what at one time must have been a straight edge.
Title: Re: Westerbeke 40 Rebuild?
Post by: S/V AMITY on January 15, 2020, 01:51:44 PM
  That pan is warped/bent beyond redemption... will never reliably seal again.  Add a new pan + gasket to the order list.  Recommend Permatex for gooping the new gasket.  https://www.amazon.com/Permatex-82180-Maximum-Resistance-Silicone/dp/B0002UEN1U .

Title: Re: Westerbeke 40 Rebuild?
Post by: jpendoley on January 15, 2020, 05:28:51 PM
Yeah, that was my thinking when I posted the picture-thank you for confirming my suspicion.  Wonder where I can get a good used oil pan?
Title: Re: Westerbeke 40 Rebuild?
Post by: S/V AMITY on January 15, 2020, 06:04:35 PM
A used one may be just a swap for the same problem.  Try making a fixture out of good flat hard wood such as birch to match the flange faces and gently hammer the pan flange as flat as you can get it.  It might just work.
Title: Re: Westerbeke 40 Rebuild?
Post by: S/V AMITY on January 15, 2020, 06:32:28 PM
Search YouTube for "straighten bent engine oil pan".  Guy is straightening his auto transmission pan but it amounts to the same thing.
Title: Re: Westerbeke 40 Rebuild?
Post by: jpendoley on February 24, 2020, 02:11:51 PM
Rebuild update. Had to take a detour to get a wood stove installed in the barn so I could work without freezing...

Irwin knurled bolt extractor tool is the bees knees-removed that last stripped bolt with ease.
Have the engine broken down to bare block.  Was hoping to just reseal it, but after removing the pan it became clear that a rebuild was in order.  For all of you cold weather sailors remember you heard it here: DON'T USE STARTING FLUID-even sparingly- to start your diesel. One ear of number four piston skirt was lying in the pan.  I am certain starting fluid was the culprit.  At that point, I needed to remove the piston, so off with its head!  I now have it down to a bare block and am astonished that other than the broken skirt and and some pitting on the number three piston head (errant injector tip?) there is no apparent wear on the liners-not a scratch-they shine like mirrors-the bearings, the valves, the seats, journals on the crank and cam-all look like new.

My new straightedge, bore gauge and micrometer arrive tomorrow (love buying new tools!) so the numbers will tell definitively, but I am optimistic that the head and block will be flat-if so machine shop work required may be minimal to none. In any case the manual states the head cannot be skimmed. If cylinder liner wear is within spec I might get away with no machine shop work...This was an engine that read 4000 hours on the meter before the meter stopped and I know it pushed the boat for at least 15000 miles by the fellow I bought it from and he was not the first owner.

Also, while I had the engine in the stand I could look at the rear main seal I replaced two summers ago- no signs of leakage what so ever.  The main leak culprits were all around the area of the timing cover, which is of course next to impossible to address on our boats when the engine is installed and the oil pan.

Trans Atlantic Diesel sells a rebuild kit with liners, bearings, pistons , thrust washers , gaskets etc for $600 and change.
If I get off this cheap I may opt for a serpentine upgrade kit to lose the belt squeal at 2200 RPM and keep down the dust and possibly drive a larger alternator. Also on the wish list is the spin on primary fuel filter adapter kit-bleeding the stock filter in the can is a drag.
More updates to follow.
Title: Re: Westerbeke 40 Rebuild?
Post by: S/V AMITY on February 24, 2020, 02:28:28 PM
Good write-up! 
Title: Re: Westerbeke 40 Rebuild?
Post by: jpendoley on February 27, 2020, 09:24:27 AM
Status update and request for advice to the mechanically literate amongst us.  I will start by saying I am an ok mechanic-rebuilt an A4 20 years ago and it is still running, so you know I can do anything if i understand the gotchas ahead of time. And the A4 looks a lot like a Perkins 4-108...
 I have the block stripped. Crank and cam out, pistons and bearings all separated, bagged and labelled as to original locations. Head obviously off. I have been meticulous and I have the shop manual. I bought a set of decent micrometers and a dial bore gauge and learned how to use them-which was actually fun.  The numbers suggest the cylinders (dry sleeves) are really not too worn-perhaps 3.127 or 3.128 when the spec is 3-125-3.126. So at most .002 out.  Some ovality, but not extreme.  No scoring on the sleeves and very little carbon at the tops of the sleeves-very slight ridge.
The crank seems brilliant-no scoring-no pits almost looks freshly ground and it seems to measure completely within spec. Bearings were spotless. One piston had a broken skirt (found it in the sump-but did not migrate) and one piston top had some pitting where it looked like an injector tip bounced around the combustion chamber)
Rebuild kit is $600. Includes pistons, rings, bearings etc. You can spec oversize if the crank had to be turned.

My question is this: is it likely I just need sleeves and the block milled?  I'm still practicing my micrometer skills-but last night the journals "miked" at exactly the manual  spec (2.248/2.485).  The shop notes mention 4-108 cranks were Tuffrided-but the machine shop says that is no longer done due to toxic concerns. Apparently Tuffriding created a harder crank surface. The dial bore gauge revealed some wear and ovality in the sleeves as mentioned-so I the shop manual also states the head can not be milled. iam thinking I may just need to have the block sleeved, reinstall the crank with the original size bearings and be good to go.
What are the thoughts of the group?  I am trying to avoid a monster machine shop bill...do I trust my micrometer skills or pay them to measure everything in addition to sleeve installation? What Have I neglected to consider??
The machine shop is quoting a 6 week lead time-that will make my schedule tight, but not impossible...
Jim
Walkabout 365 Sloop

Title: Re: Westerbeke 40 Rebuild?
Post by: jpendoley on February 27, 2020, 09:26:56 AM
Sorry for the upside down vertigo thing-not sure why the pics get flipped
Title: Re: Westerbeke 40 Rebuild?
Post by: S/V Deo Volente on February 27, 2020, 10:48:30 AM
Have you checked bore taper? Also check ring side clearance. Both will flex and wear rings faster. I'm not an expert but have done some auto shade tree work. I have been told WD40 can be used as starting fluid for diesel, never ever use ether! Are you having the valves ground? The machine shop may give you some recommendations if you are using them for some of the work.
Title: Re: Westerbeke 40 Rebuild?
Post by: jpendoley on February 27, 2020, 11:10:45 AM
Regarding taper, I measured the cylinders at three locations 1 inch 3 and 2 inches deep. Fore and aft and left to right. There is some mild ovality so Its a given that I am having new sleeves installed which will dictate ring replacement and new pistons are part of the rebuild kit. One piston had a broken skirt which caused to apparent damage.
I recall at haulout time I needed a whiff of ether to start-I think that busted the piston skirt-made a rattling sound for a few seconds before quieting down-I think the rattle was the skirt bouncing off parts before falling into the sump. Lucky I did not run all season that way or the damage might be more extensive.
Title: Re: Westerbeke 40 Rebuild?
Post by: jpendoley on March 03, 2020, 08:50:18 PM
Time for an update.  after hemming and hawing, I have decided to resleeve the block. Liners were at 50% of allowable wear and I figured while I had it out and since I was installing new pistons and rings, liners might as well get replaced too. That was before I found out the machine shops are all quoting 45 day lead times for work on blocks
Having more sense than brains, I have decided to remove the dry liners myself.  after googling the subject-specifically with perkins builds, I embarked. the first approach using 3/4 fine threaded rod and machined plates (like you would use to pull big bearings) started out well-but after I got the first liner half way out the thread on the tightening nut on the threaded rod failed. Lots of tension in this project. At thread failure point I had a 16" pipe wrench attached to a four foot bar...picture attached
Plan B is to use a 10-20 ton hydraulic pump and hollow ram to pull the damn things out.  Its a little scary.
I have also heard running beads with an arc welder the length of the liners will pucker them and they will drop out-has anyone done that or know of anyone who has?  I am concerned that given the interference fit and the thinness of the liners, I would accidentally weld them to the block-that would be interesting.
Title: Re: Westerbeke 40 Rebuild?
Post by: Dale Tanski on March 04, 2020, 07:20:47 AM
Your deep into this one now, I respect that.  I have talked to people who have used a torch to heat vertical stripes in the liner.  Typically what they do is to install the puller just like the one that you concocted and tension it up, then apply the heat .  The red hot stripes apparently relax the liner and it implodes into the bore a bit and they slide right out. 
Applying a bead of weld I'm sure would do the same thing, but if you penetrated a bit to deep you would have set the anchor. 

I also like the idea of the hollow bore hydraulic ram.  A little hydraulics go a long way compared to the inclined plane.  If you stick to the mechanical extractor method most threaded rod you buy in the wild is soft with a tensile strength around 60k psi.  McMaster Carr has threaded rod up to grade 8 which will get you in the 125k psi range and if you have a Fastenall near by they have the good stuff as well.  You may want to consider ACME threaded rod which has square cut threads typically used in mechanical jacking applications.  McMaster sells that as well.

I have also heard about using dry ice.  I assume you have a stepped disk that fits into the bore and allows you to pull from the bottom of the liner.  This closes the bottom of the bore. The concept is to tension up the puller and dump in some dry ice.  At -100F the dry ice shrinks the liner and away it goes. 

Hope all goes well.  Good luck.

Dale
Title: Re: Westerbeke 40 Rebuild?
Post by: S/V Deo Volente on March 04, 2020, 07:52:17 AM
Dale is right, grade 8 is what you need. I made a similar puller for some bushing work and had to get a grade 8 rod. Dry ice is what I would suggest as a first step before the torch. I assume the new liners will require boring though.
Title: Re: Westerbeke 40 Rebuild?
Post by: jpendoley on March 04, 2020, 08:23:07 AM
This part of the project is a bit nerve wracking, but I am hopeful that a thoughtful, slow and steady approach will get me through. And I cannot believe the depth of knowledge on this forum-it is such a great resource. Even simple things like what you just taught me about different strengths of threaded rod is invaluable. As you can tell, this is not my day job..

I've weighing all options,  Couple of issues:
1. I don't have gas-at least not now...

2. My jig has stepped discs at the bottom AND the top of the liner-this to ensure the discs stay centered and don't skew in the liner increasing risk of scratching the bore or binding-but it imposes some constraints.

3.Have heard about dry ice-am planning on that approach for the installation of the new liner, but given the "two disc" enclosure for removal, I think that precludes the dry ice for removal. By the time the ice is packed in and the jig reassembled the whole area would be chilled.

4.Then there is this.....Harbor Freight sells a little portable 120Volt AC inverted to DC ARC welder that has recieved great reviews for short money ($150).  Seems like that would be an inexpensive way to learn stick welding (always wanted to and who doesn't like a new tool?) and less likely to generate the heat to thru weld the liner.  And given that the first liner is stuck halfway out, I can practice on the segment that is not in contact with a cylinder bore. If its too wild/unstable I still have a tool to play with and I fall back to the option below.

5. I have ordered the hollow ram-for only $120 and am picking up a hydraulic pump-10 or 20 tons today. Again, Harbor Freight- if the welder works I can return the hydraulic....Ram wont be here until next week.

This is kind of an expensive learning curve, but its probably less than using a machine shop and given they quoted 45 days I think its an overall reasonable approach.
Title: Re: Westerbeke 40 Rebuild?
Post by: jpendoley on March 04, 2020, 08:32:00 AM
Bob-my understanding is reboring is required if the bores are out of spec or damaged. Is that true or am I being too optimistic? My liners were .003 out (.006 is considered the wear limit)if not for a broken piston skirt I wouldn't be rebuilding at all-I am hoping to get the liners out, measure the bores and find them as manufactured.  If I did, then I was hoping to install original replacements.  The goal is to bypass the machine shop. Block is flat, crank and cam are perfect. Head will probably need combustion inserts and maybe some valve work-haven't measured then yet-though visually they look great). Again, this is not my day job...what am I missing?
Title: Re: Westerbeke 40 Rebuild?
Post by: S/V Deo Volente on March 04, 2020, 09:42:30 AM
I was told that they will need a clean up bore because the dry liners are thin and can distort while assembling. Maybe the supplier can tell you. Dry ice is -109F so you need to be careful handling. It will disappear fairly fast but leave the liner cold for awhile.   
Title: Re: Westerbeke 40 Rebuild?
Post by: Dale Tanski on March 04, 2020, 02:10:51 PM
Dry Ice will transfer the cold to the liners and be long gone before the cast block starts to cool.  Besides, the numbers on the thermal conductivity of the steel liners say they will conduct the cold at half the rate that the cast iron will, meaning any cold that escapes the liner will travel through the cast iron at twice the rate and therefore be half the temp differential and contract at half of the rate.  This means that the greater the differential in temperature the cast iron block and will never catch up and the liner will shrink at twice the rate.  The coefficient of expansion for the two materials are so close that the liner is going to shrink before the block has half a chance.

Up here we can buy dry ice at any good welding supply and can it be transported in a good cooler.  Yes... because of the ultra low temperature you have to be careful while handling it.  If you had a source for liquid nitrogen at -300+F you could just squirt some of that into the liner and they would probably fall out on their own.  As far as inserting the new liners, a couple of days in a good freezer or a a nap in dry ice would be a big help. 

Keep going! We are all living vicariously through you.

Dale
Title: Re: Westerbeke 40 Rebuild?
Post by: jpendoley on March 04, 2020, 07:27:31 PM
I am very happy to report the liners are out.  The little AC welder I bought allowed me to run beads up and down the liners and the result was I was able to tap them out. No burn through anywhere but  I did get one knick down at the bottom of one cylinder where a piece of slag bound to a cylinder. Its small, about  0.2 inches but I hope one localized divot should not equal a rebore. Hoping emery cloth will smooth it well enough for liners. The rest of the cylinder is spotless and on spec. .  Other than that divot, the bores seem to be as manufactured and on or within .0005 of spec. Will call TransAtlantic Diesel to get there recommendations regarding reboring tomorrow. Thank you all for the support!
Title: Re: Westerbeke 40 Rebuild?
Post by: S/V AMITY on March 05, 2020, 08:37:10 AM
  Great education for the some of us.  Thanks for taking the time to post your progress log. 
Title: Re: Westerbeke 40 Rebuild?
Post by: jpendoley on March 05, 2020, 12:42:26 PM
Sigh-just spoke with clerk at TransAtlantic Diesel-they are a big Westerbeke/4-107/4-108 parts seller. The nice lady  tell me their liners need to be installed and then bored-which means I probably will not avoid the machine shop with its attendant cost and 45 DAY LEAD TIME!!  Its strange because the origianal liners are very thin-like 0.125 inches.  When I mentioned that they said it was probably due to inability to source the originals. That sounds odd because the ones I removed are dead simple-no flange straight liners, steel not chrome.  Why would progress in liner design yield thicker liners and require the use of more raw materials?  Clearly I need to do some shopping around.
Its even more frustrating because the parent bores measured as new (just like almost everything else on this engine).
Jim
Title: Re: Westerbeke 40 Rebuild?
Post by: S/V AMITY on March 05, 2020, 01:01:51 PM
Try Mack Boring:  http://mackboring.com/.  In past years I've gotten Perkins parts from them.

Title: Re: Westerbeke 40 Rebuild?
Post by: jpendoley on March 15, 2020, 07:55:00 PM
Liner update-my local Napa put together a rebuild kit for me. I received lots of conflicting advice about liners-to bore or not to bore. My local Napa guys assured me it could be done with out boring so i gave it a shot.  I bought some dry ice and let them chill to about -13 degrees and the first one went about halfway in and then tightened up-I suppose it had warmed up but steady tapping with a bearing plate and a hammer finally sent it home, I was really concerned about the potential for damage to the liner and in fact, I may replace the first one because it chipped ever so slightly at the top.  After that experience I got smart and suspended the block over my wood stove for a bit-brought the block up to 170 degrees and still kept the liners on ice-they slid in almost effortlessly.
So for it looks like I am staying out of the machine shop.
Title: Re: Westerbeke 40 Rebuild?
Post by: S/V AMITY on March 15, 2020, 09:00:52 PM
   Excellent!!!

   I've used more or less that same technique for rebuilding my raw water pump.  Housing in the oven to about 175 deg. and the bearings in the freezer for several hours.  Yours is likely the first block that's been heated over a wood stove. 
Title: Re: Westerbeke 40 Rebuild?
Post by: jpendoley on March 15, 2020, 09:09:35 PM
Yankee ingenuity is alive and well. Next challenge is honing the cylinders-hopefully parts guy got it right and only honing is required.
Title: Re: Westerbeke 40 Rebuild?
Post by: S/V AMITY on March 15, 2020, 09:21:55 PM
Yanks always find a creative solution  8). One step at a time... you're doing fine.  Once she's honed the rest of the job is reassembly.  How do the valves look?
Title: Re: Westerbeke 40 Rebuild?
Post by: jpendoley on March 17, 2020, 05:49:46 PM
Taking a detailed look at the valves tomorrow-first pass is little immediately detectable wear. Hoping I can confine this adventure to just the lower end...
Title: Re: Westerbeke 40 Rebuild?
Post by: S/V AMITY on March 17, 2020, 07:56:20 PM
   While enjoying the adventure, lapping the valves is an important part of the experience whether they seem to need it or not.  Can't hurt and will assure solid compression.  Depending on the hours on the engine you may also want to replace the valve springs.  When you're done you'll have an "as new" mill and will be able to sleep soundly.  Cheers!
Title: Re: Westerbeke 40 Rebuild?
Post by: jpendoley on March 18, 2020, 09:18:37 AM
Amity, one thing I love about owning an older design is it requires lots of work that requires me learning new skills-and I love to learn. While not a tradesman, I learn pretty quickly and I find I really lose all track of time when I am working on the boat.  So now I will learn about inspecting and probably dressing valve seats. Rebuild kits for the top are pretty inexpensive so will be looking hard at your suggestion. This forum is an incredible resource.
Title: Re: Westerbeke 40 Rebuild?
Post by: jpendoley on March 20, 2020, 10:14:14 AM
Update for the project. remember that replaced liner that had an ever so tiny chip at the top? Well, I couldn't leave it there and worry about it ever after so I ran a few beads up the inside walls and knocked it out. I have gotten quite proficient at removing cylinder liners.... Napa tells me a new one should arrive today. Dry ice and a little roasting over the woodstove and that new liner should slide right in. Well, "slide right in" might be optimistic, but at least I won't chip the liner this time. During these days of pandemic an ever so brief trip to Napa (with the requisite disinfection wipe down) is my only off property activity-that and working in the shop on my property or ensconced inside the boat.

Removed one intake valve and examined-the surface looks flawless, uniform in wear and all wear is on the lower end of the valve edge-not even close to the top. I am going to pull them all-measure the guides and make a call today to decide if the top end is worth doing. A rebuild kit is very inexpensive-like $90. Its the lapping in and valve seat recutting that has me hesitant-I've never done that before....

Posting my progress somehow keeps my thoughts organized. And maybe for all you non-mechanics out there (of which I am one) these updates might give you the confidence that if an English major and IT sales guy can do this-you can to...unless you have one of those money trees in your back yard, in which case I would say pay a real mechanic!
Title: Re: Westerbeke 40 Rebuild?
Post by: S/V AMITY on March 20, 2020, 10:41:00 AM
  English majors invariably make the best diesel mechanics.  Surprised your student adviser didn't tell you that.  IT is a slight handicap but happily you appear to have overcome that.

  Carry on.  Cheers!

Title: Re: Westerbeke 40 Rebuild?
Post by: jpendoley on March 28, 2020, 05:06:17 PM
Rebuild update: Progress has been slow. The new liner arrived on Monday and was promptly put on dry ice, the block hung over the woodstove and the liner went in with a modicum of pounding. Unfortunately, the liners did need to be bored. I contracted with Hansen, out of Marblehead-they sold the Westerbeke line back when these engines were imported from Perkins. Wealth of information. They bored and honed the liners and decked the block in 48 hours.  Cost me $600 bucks. They are a wealth of information about the peculiarities of the 4-108 and gave me some really solid advice. For example, even though the block was flat, the recommended decking a few thousands, because the gaskets that ship now don't crush the way the copper/steel gaskets did with the original engines. Turns out the wrist pin bushings also need to be reamed after install so I will have another machining bill for the rods I left with them-those should be ready for install on Tuesday.  Things will begin to get exciting next week as I begin assembly. All bolt ons painted, plastigauge ready, torque wrenches poised for action.
Title: Re: Westerbeke 40 Rebuild?
Post by: S/V AMITY on March 28, 2020, 07:05:08 PM
  600 bucks well spent.  The service manual only takes you so far.  An experienced mechanic who knows the engine completes the trip.  Post some pictures when you can. 
Title: Re: Westerbeke 40 Rebuild?
Post by: jpendoley on March 31, 2020, 05:35:47 PM
Piston rods bushings need to be reamed after install-$150.  Fuel pump resealing and calibrating $550. Cylinder liner boring $615. Still have to get numbers for the head and valves and I am already at $1315 for machine shop costs. I paid $650 for parts so the total cost of rebuilding this engine is stands at $1965 with labor provided by a certified...english major.  Hoping vale work is not too costly!
Title: Re: Westerbeke 40 Rebuild?
Post by: jpendoley on May 06, 2020, 08:37:35 PM
Rebuild is done! After bleeding the air out of the fuel system, she fired right up and ran for about an hour on my shop floor. No smoke. Thank you to everyone for the support and advice. All in, the cost was just about $3000, $2400 of which was machine shop work.  I provided all the labor and learned a ton.  Engine ran cool at idle and warmed up a little bit as I throttled up (though I had no way to load it so mostly idled).  Oil pressure steady at 48 PSI.
A few notable upgrade and improvisations:

1. The Foley fuel filter seems like a sensible upgrade. Priming the fuel system would have been a bear if I had
     to fill the old canister filter housing with the hand pump.

2. TAD serpentine kit-I'm liking it so far-quiet and no squeal or belt dust. Belt lines up perfectly

3. Installed a Balmar adjusting arm for the alternator-makes adjusting the belt tension a simple one handed
    affair

4. Timing Case Cover-I fabricated a external ring to completely surround the perimiter of the timing cover
    flange so the flange is sandwiched between the fabricated ring and the block-it should provide a much tighter
    leak proof seal.  This was a silly amount of work for me-I did it with stick welding and grinding, but it came
    out well and I can't see how it could leak.

5. Replaced the tab washers on the oil pan with sealing frames port and starboard to sandwhich the pan flange
    against the block
Title: Re: Westerbeke 40 Rebuild?
Post by: SVJourney on May 07, 2020, 01:08:48 AM
Picture #3, I see you have installed a canoe stern on your 365... impressive!  :D

Congrats!  I know what it is like to do countless hours and boat bucks to hear it crank up and run.  Nail biting and satisfying at the same time.  Re-extending my invite to Grenada here. 
Title: Re: Westerbeke 40 Rebuild?
Post by: S/V AMITY on May 07, 2020, 06:57:36 AM
Perry designed stern!  Great job with the engine... 👍
Title: Re: Westerbeke 40 Rebuild?
Post by: S/V Deo Volente on May 07, 2020, 07:50:28 AM
Picture #3, I see you have installed a canoe stern on your 365... impressive!  :D

Congrats!  I know what it is like to do countless hours and boat bucks to hear it crank up and run.  Nail biting and satisfying at the same time.  Re-extending my invite to Grenada here.

If you're in Grenada I wonder if you've run into my good friends Al and Sally Prybil on Artemis ? 
Title: Re: Westerbeke 40 Rebuild?
Post by: jpendoley on May 08, 2020, 06:40:47 AM
Two days ago, I was thrilled the engine simply started. I've now progressed to wanting to fine tune things a bit.
A few small gremlins to address before final head torque and reinstall.  Still in the break in the test bench phase running it at varying rpms for break in-total run time to date maybe two hours.

1. The engine oil cooler leaks water-not into the oil thank goodness-bolted on a used spare and it leaks too.They seem to let go where the inlet ports are brazed to the can-any body else experience this?  One had faithfully received new zincs and the other had not. Repair or replace?

2.the engine is too smoky-at least in my barn with the windows wide open and box fans blowing. Injectors are known good-but am wondering can the engine run on less than four cylinders? I only cracked two injectors to restart,  Could an injector be spraying fuel mixed with air and not firing even though it runs? Seems I have too much unburnt fuel.

Alternatively, could the fuel pump timing need a little adjustment?  I aligned the timing mark on the rebuilt  fuel pump but am wondering if I got the backlash adjustment on the timing gears right. Should I experiment with slight pump alignment adjustments to reduce the smog?
The engine ran much cleaner BEFORE rebuilding...
Title: Re: Westerbeke 40 Rebuild?
Post by: jpendoley on May 28, 2020, 08:07:29 PM
 As a follow up to my last post-timing on the rebuilt fuel pump was off. Rotated the pump body and the smoke disappeared. Purrs like a kitten now.  New fuel tank goes in tomorrow and the diesel goes in Saturday.
One other thing I forgot to mention for anyone considering a rebuild-replace the primary fuel filter canister with the Foley fuel filter modification. Makes bleeding the engine and changing filters a snap. Very positive upgrade.  Serpentine belt is great too-expect much less belt dust. As  an act of faith, I painted the engine bay white =hope I don't regret that, but should make the cave much brighter and encourage me to keep ahead of any leaks.
Jim
Title: Re: Westerbeke 40 Rebuild?
Post by: S/V AMITY on May 29, 2020, 08:26:16 AM
Great progress!  Where will you mount the fuel filters?
Title: Re: Westerbeke 40 Rebuild?
Post by: jpendoley on May 29, 2020, 06:36:16 PM
The Foley filter converts the original fuel filter canister to accept spin on cartridges-so that stays on the block. The Racor 500 is mounted remotely on the wall by the sink. I do have a question about how to plumb the fuel delivery flow though-perhaps someone can chime in with an answer:
 I have an electric fuel pump in addition to the block mounted cam driven diaphragm pump ("lift pump")normally I leave the electric (facet)off (wired through the breaker panel). The facet fuel pump is handy when changing filterS as you don't have to pump the engine mounted pump by hand which takes forever.  Would also act as a backup if the lift pump failed. This pump was plumbed before the ra or so it would pump fueli into the racor rather than sucking it through the racor- not cool if you have an older fuel tank or got some dirty fuel or moisture because it would not allow the racor to do its job. Racor advises the electric pump be installed on the suction side which would put it in line with the engine mounted primary diaphragm pump. Can the lift pump pull fuel through the racor and the electric pump if the electric pump is off? The configuration I Envision is fuel tank to racor to electric pump to lift pump to primary filter to injectors. Is that a logical configuration even with the electric pump off?