Stanchions - leaks, leaks and more leaks

[Verne]

Okay, so I hope no one is already tired of my needy ness questions.  Seems we have a few, leaks from topside.  I have one local very good friend and very nice man who is a 1978 365 owner that says, no balsa in  or under the stanchions and so, just remove, clean, and reseat with 3M 4200 an all will be well.  I had a 71 year old knowledgeable fiberglass gent come take a look and he is giving me an estimate, but thinks I "do have a blasa core" and that the leaks have been there a while and I have  "some moisture in the balsa already" and this needs to take priority over anything else I was planning on doing, such as the top side bright work teak being cleaned and covered with two or three coats of Cetol.
So, IF , there is NO balsa, I can take these leaks one at a time under anchor and let the wife and child swim and play.  OR, if there IS balsa, then I need to stop these leaks all over, and there are about five or six I have found so far, and arrest these leaks quickly.

One of the port side stanchions I think,,, "think" took a hit, as you can grab the stanchion and move it port to starboard and see the deck flex a little.  My "friend" says that is the plastic back plate that Pearson used,  and to do the following; buy some rubber from this site, it is a perfect marine grade gasket material to go topside under the stanchion and compliment it with some 3M 4200.

http://www.mcmaster.com/#8616k44/=12fqwm7

12" X 24"....enough to make gaskets for every stanchion and pulpit base. McMaster accepts all plastic. Located in Atlanta, so if you get the order in early enough it will be delivered by UPS the next day.

I quote him "Dancing Rabbit 365 -  This is what I used on my stanchions and pulpit bases. Pearson just used silicone for bedding compound for the bases. This is a soft white rubber that you cut with a pair of scissors and then punch out the holes for the screws. Stop by Weird World (WalMart) and pick up a white nylon or Teflon cutting board. This we will cut to the size of the base, drill the holes and wahla, no more leaks."

Summary:  Does this sound correct?  Is his 1978 365 different from my 1982 367?

Our boat, Deja vu, is apply named.  I thought when I sold my Catalina 30 ,,, then later my Catalina 36,  I was done with these projects.  Can't help myself, love the water too much...can't afford either a condo or a new boat...  On with getting this one dry,, er...

Need some experience replies, , , please.

Verne

Deja vu 367

[P69]

Remove, clean out, rebed.

This will help:  http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/rebedding_hardware

Verne, I have the same boat you do, #42

Balsa is under the stanchions and it'll probably be rotten.

Here is what I do when I rebed.

1. remove the hardware and backing plate
2. Clean the under side as much as possible
3. Drill out each hole so it is *slightly* larger. This gets rid of silicone, nothing will stick to that crap
4. pick, scrape, chisel, hack away as much of the core, damaged or not, so you creat a cavity of abotu 1/2" all round the hole. AT this point, the dia of the hollowed area will be 1" plus the dia of the hole. So if you have a 5/16" hole and you hollow out the core to 1/2" you will have a total hollow dia of 1 5/16 "
5. If there is a liner inside, hack away enough to that to get to the underside of the deck, coaming, or whatever. 
    If you can't or don't want to chop away the liner, see below.
6. Now, dry the hollowed out area, flood with denature alcohol and let dry
6A.  Drill the fastener holes a little bigger so they are twice the dia of the fastener you will use, make sure you won't see this larger dia when fitting is put back on. if so, don't make them 2x the fastener dia.
7. Underneath, clean off the underside with alcohol, then acetone
8. put a layer or two of 1.5 oz chopped strand mat (CSM) with plain old polyester resin. Mix it hot so it goes off quick
    This layer prevents the epoxy from dripping down into the cabin. Just enough mat to cover the holes.
9. Acetone  the hollowed out cavity, mask the visible areas with tape
10. Mix epoxy so ti's kinda  runny and pour a little into the cavities, use a popsicle stick  or acid brush to push the runny epoxy around the cavity.
11. Mix more epoxy with thickener (west system 404?) so  it will flow (little thicker than cold honey) and pour it into the cavities. Do not fill to top, but near top, say 2 or 3mm below finished surface. air bubbles will work up to surface, esp. if it's hot out.
12 . once first round  has cured hard. sand/grind out the bubbles and prep for next/final pour.
13. mix some more epoxy thicker this time (tooth paste?),  gently to get as few bubbles mixed in as possible.  slowly pour and stir with toothpick  so that bubble work out and epoxy is smooth and slightly above the finished surface.
14. Next day, grind flat.
15. Now, put dot (pencil) in the center of the oversized fastener holes
16. place fitting on the patch and eyeball the holes to see how well the center of the fitting holes line up with the dots.
17. If they all line up, and drill gun fits with fitting in place, drill one hole.
18. put bolt in the first hole, with nut and tighten, line up fitting and drill 2nd hole
19. put bolt in second hole, lie up fitting and drill 3rd hole
20. put bolt in 3rd hole, drill last hole.
      Do't try to drill all holes at once. you'll never get them right. drill, bolt, drill, bolt, etc.. is the only way to go. It takes more time, but you'll only drill once.
21. unbolt all of it and run a counter sink on the top of each hole
22. acetone the surfaces (fiberglass, the bolt, the underside of the fitting).
23. Make a little sausage out of butyl and wrap it around the bolt up against the undeside of the fitting.
24. Do this with all four bolts.
25. Lower the assembly into the holes and gently press it down.
26. as your helper to tighten the nuts while you hold the top.
      Don't turn the bolts. only turn the nuts; otherwise, you risk creating holes in the butyl seal ( or whatever sealant you are using).

27. Come back in an hour and tighten a bit more.

Butyl is great, but don't use too much; it oozes out everywhere.



22. put fitting on your backing plate (SS, G10, or GPO3) and mark/drill the holes



---- With liner ---

If liner is in the way and you don't want to hack a patch out, you have to put a stopper at the bottom of the hold that goes through the deck so epoxy doesn't run down and into the space between the undeside of deck and the upper side of the liner.

get some paper towel and twist it up into a little sausage. Stick it up into the hole fro underneath, but only far enough to plug the hole so epoxy will nto ooze into the space.

The paper towel will disappear when you redrill

[Verne]

I am not sure I am qualified to perform tis task, but I did read the link to the bedding tape.  I like that concept.  Do others agree wit the link's data and subject matter?

Verne

[P69]

Verne,

You can do it.  Start with one of the cleats on the cockpit coaming, the one that is over the cubby holes aft of the winches.  That one needs a backing plate and if it rains, it will leak into the cubby hole, not the interior.

It's not as hard as it seems.  Start with easy ones and build up your skill. 
The deck core is balsa, so it will be easier than hollowing out the plywood that is in some parts.

I made a backing plate  of 1/2" GPO3, which is prefab red fiberglass panel from onlinemetals.com.  I've also made my own backing plates out of polyester resin and cloth/biaxial/mat or whatever combination I had in the garage. The great thin about polyester resin is that you can control the pot live and time-to-cure by increasing or decreasing the amount of catalyst.   Epoxy is different. Follow the mix ration exactly, then wait, and wait, and wait. Next day or evening, it'll be cured. It's much stonger than poly, but takes longer to get there.


It is usually a 3 day project. Day 1, remove hardware , hollow out the core, let dry.  Day 2, put polyester resin/mat patch underneath, will solidify in about an hour. mix up the epoxy and pour it in to within 3 or 4 mm of the finished surface. Let cure overnight.  Day 3, mix up final epoxy pour and let it cure overnight. OK, 4 day task.  Day 4, drill out the holes and bed/fasten hardware.

Forgot that you have to make the backing plate, so do that on  Day -1.

Ok, little more involved. Make the backing plate, with rounded edges. on Day 2, you will use epoxy putty (that you mix up) and glue the backing plate to the underside. I used a clamp to hold it in place, but you can use a single drywall screw to screw it up into the underside to hold it while the epoxy cures.  Once it's all cured, on Day4, you more the drywall screw or clamp and drill out the holes for the fasteners.

We were all new at this game once and learned how to get the job done.  I didn't know a thing about this when I bought the boat and I had never worked with epoxy.  I knew how to sail, been doing that for 20-something years.  Get some epoxy and a small amount of polyester resin from home depot or even walmart, then practice in the garage in the evening to see now it mixes and cures. Just don't use that home depot or walmart crap on your boat.

You can do it; it just takes time, sometimes a lot of time.

[Della and Dave]

I agree with p69, I have used th bedding tape for several deck penetrations and followed the instructions on the Compass Marne sire and it worked well for me. 

Being cold up here in the great white north, a heat gun used carefully helped, and coming back to do a final tighten the next day was good to do.  I would second what he said about the silicon if that was used before, it needs to be cleaned off, but it is' tad critical that the surface be perfect with the butyl tape as some other products. 

A warning about sealants, 3M 5200 is great stuff, but not for any application where you could ever want to get it apart ever again.  It is a very tenacious glue.  There is a solvent for it, but it takes lot of time.  West Marne Advisor has a good primer on sealants. 

[Verne]

Verne, I have the same boat you do, #42 

Balsa is under the stanchions and it'll probably be rotten. -

So my reply to that is as follows; I have a 1982 hull# 22 -  a friend went to Turner Marine, a Pearson dealer in Mobile AL, here is what Prince Turner told him / us...

Just got back from Prince Turners house. Called and asked him to dig thru any old file folders he had from the days when they were selling Pearsons. Said he found several notices to dealers from Pearson pertaining to cored decks and hulls. Without going  into a long boring detailed explanation, he said hull # 150 to 200 for the 365 and hull number 0 to 30 for the 367, the decks were cored with 1/4" marine plywood, NOT BALSA ! ! ! After these hull numbers the deck was cored with Balsa as a production costs cuts during the Carter years.  The deck is 3/4" thick with 1/4" of glass on top and bottom. This means you do not have to go thru the process of coring out and modifying as the guy from 365 yacht club described. Went down to the Rabbit (his Pearson 365) and checked one stanchion that had cracks like yours. Used a piece of SS wire and probed the holes and found that the wood was soft for about 1/2" around the screw hole. According to Prince, all you need to do is use a good rubber gasket and solid backing plate (like the pic I sent to you)and rebed with something like 4200 and you are good to go. If you can get to it, drill a small  hole underneath close to each screw hole so it can drain over time if there's any moisture. (end)

So, should I buy the bedding tape or use 3M 4200?  Does this change some things or not so much?  I think, since I am cash strapped, I will attempt to 'arrest' the leaks for now and stop any further spreading progress.  I will however make a more informed determination when I pull the hardware.  I do like what I read about the bedding tape and if that is a superior concept to 3M 4200, I is well worth the small investment.

For a backing plate, I was told to go to Wal Mart and buy a high end Teflon or nylon cutting board and cut it to sizes needed.  seems to be a reasonable concept and for sure easier than building my own, plus they will be pretty thick too.

You guys are great, and I look forward to your most kind reply - replies.  I indeed value all opinions.

[Jim S]

Butyl tape is an excellent product to prevent leaks.  I use a butyl tape from Ace Hardware named "Rope Caulk" found in the weatherstripping area.  Home Depot sells butly tape as well.  The Ace product is softer than the butly tape from the fellow in Maine.  I like both products and use the Ace brand in areas where screws pull down the flange and could strip.  The tougher product from Maine I use where there is through bolting involved and the threads will not strip.  I have not used the Home Depot product.

Butly tape was used in the hull deck joint in many early production boats and somehow fell out of favor.  It is a fine product that has helped me maintain Phantom leak free for many years.

Hint: It is helpful to cut a small bevel in the fastening hole in thefiberglass at the flange to give the butyl tape a "kind-of" O-ring effect.  Butly tape will stay pliable for years, if not forever.  I have found that it oozes out with time but that does not affect the watertight integrity of the joint.

I have essentially stopped using 4200 and 5200 since I started using butyl tape.

[P69]

Verne,

Even if you have plywood core, some will be rotten and will have to be removed. Any  solid plywood will have to be cut back a little bit to enlarge the  hole, then put epoxy in the hole and redrill.  You have to keep in mind that water will get back into that hole and it needs to be channeled directly into the interior, not into the core, regardless of what the core is made out of.  Never seal the underside of a deck penetration; you want to see the water drip onto your berth so you can be aware of the leak.

Also, it takes only a fraction of a millimeter gap to let water in under the rubber gasket and if the surfaces of the stanchion base and desk are not absolutely perfectly free of silicone, 4200 will never stick (neither will butyl) and it will leak again. It only take one gorilla to yank on a stanchion while boarding to flex it enough to make a leak. You need a sealant the will never harden.

You might be looking at this from  a penny-wise/pound-foolish perspective.   Do the job once and do it right. I'm not saying I'm right, but using a rubber gasket and not over drilling/backfilling with epoxy  will guarantee a future leak into the core.

Based on West System tables, I calculated the cost of mixed/thickened epoxy resin to fix one stanchion. It's not as expensive as you think, unless you buy your supplies at West Marine.

I used $20 per 15.2 oz container of west 404 powder and $119 per 1.5 gallon kit of epoxy from epoxyproducts.com  (their storefront is http://www.epoxyusa.com/category_s/3.htm)
A 1.5 gallon kit  is 1 gallon of resin and 1/2 gallon of hardener. This nets 1.5 gallons of mixed resin for about $120

PM me with you email address and i'll email the spreadsheet to you.

Sidenote: Word documents and spreadsheet are vectors for viruses; that's we don't allow those file types to be uploaded.

Back to the epoxy cost. . .

That's 24 cups of mixed epoxy for $120, or about $5/cup

Using the table on page  11 of Wests user manual . . .
http://www.westsystem.com/ss/assets/HowTo-Publications/User%20Manual%202015.pdf

. . . I calculated the cost of two consistencies, mayonnaise and ketchup.
You use Ketchup for most of the fill after you hollow out the core, the top it off with a bit of mayonnaise the next day.  In reality, you will use less 404 in the first pour because it needs to be runnier than ketchup.

For one stanchion, you will use about a half cup, depending on how much core you removed, maybe up to 1 cup.

Here is what it will cost per stanchion, assuming 1/2 cup of ketchup and a little mayonnaise to top it off.

Ketchup: about 1/2 cup @ $5.50 (includes resin, hardener. enough 404 to get Ketchup consistency)
Mayonnaise: is $4.75 per 0.45 cup, but you will likely only use about 1/4 cup, so cost will be about a buck for that second thicker amount the next day.

Total for a stanchion is just under $7.00 for thickend epoxy.

You will use about 6" of butyl tape and that is about $0.25

So you are looking at about $8.00 for one stanchion patch.

Toss in some acetone and a few paper towels, and you are looking at maybe about 10 bucks per stanchion.

I agree the initial outlay is steep, epoxy $120, 404 powder: $20, butyl tape: $40 (compass marine), toss in some  several 50 cent bolts and shipping and you get a bill of a bit over $200. Add another $50 for fiberglass mat and a some polyester resin, but that will go a long way and fix a lot of leaks.


Remember, you can fix it several  times or you can fix it once. You'll  get it done either way. You just have to sift through all the information about how to do it wrong (and mine might be one of those) until you decide what is the right way.

If you have any questions, give us a holler.

[Verne]

Thanks for the efforts and calculations.  Truly appreciated.   

Verne

[PeteW]

 Butyl vs 5200 I will have to say 5200 is what I go
to when I don't want a leak. But I wait for it to partially
set before tightening the nuts inside the hull. And therein
lies the real question. How to get to those nuts  that are
in hidden by the headliner in various locations. And you
can crank the nuts down all you want on a squishy core but
it may not result in much structural integrity.

Don Casey has published several good self help books
on old boasts and deck and hull repair.  Good luck.

Pete. Still restoring old hull #6

[Leo II]

I have developed an affinity for caulking tubes of thixo epoxy especially for filling screw holes and the like.  I am extremely sensitive to epoxy, so the tube helps keep the mess contained. There is no mixing and thickening. The consistency is thick enough not to run out of a 3/8 hole. It costs a bit more than regular epoxy, but you don't need to buy fillers.  I use Jamestown distributors thixo.